What am I missing? Need help solving a problem (solved)

New Citizens Q&A
1

Well this will be the scariest post I made in a while, as I’m probably wrong on all accounts.

I have been reading this up and down at lest 20 times, and I just don’t get it to add up, I’m probably misreading something but I always end up with Peak ratio at 75%

https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Passive_shield_tanking

Summary

I have never “talked” on a wiki and their forum registrations seems closed.
So here goes, in hopes of not getting scolded or red listed for criticizing anyone.

Is it possible the author tried this formula on the baseline regen?
Tanking - EVE University Wiki
Unless I punch it in, it’s a bit above my level. but I believe the formula is intended for average regen.

And if I haven’t stepped on anyone’s toes yet, I just got to know if this is correct.
I seen so many 2.5 multipliers in game so I made this little thing to make sense of things.

Would it work here to?

If the baseline = shield / recharge time, add x2.5 we find average and can confirm it just above.
If average is just base x2.5. maximum must be another x2.5.
Adding x2.5x2 positives for max, then dividing two negatives (Shield/regen s)/5 should be min.

So the way I see it you can (Shield/recharge rate (s))x5 for the regen at braking point (25% shield hp) or turn it around and use (Shield/recharge rate s) / 5 to find the minimum regen at 0% and 100% shield.

Min to max should scale from 0% to 25% shield, then back to Min at 100% shield

Yeah I know it’s silly, but I think it adds up. And all the variables are there, so you can split it up as you like without to much hassle. In the fitting window it’s normally the 3 first numbers regarding shield. (Hp/s is just to confirm the math, and it’s normally auto rounded)

If you want the unmodified version from comparison window (no skills), you can’t really use the Hp/s quick version, only this one as far as I know. (easier than subtracting skills, and it’s easy to mix up base and average regen (not the same))

Could do the same thing with the Hp/s shown in the fitting window
It already multiplied once above the baseline so Hp/s x 2.5 should be max and Hp/s / 7.5 should be Minimum.
As your missing the decimals it’s terrible inaccurate, but close enough if you just want to estimate quickly.

I’m starting to believe everything in this universe is a number between 1-10 x 2.5.
Thanks and sorry if I’m completely off and wasting peoples time.

Edit: sorry no clue how to fix the formatting above or how it ended up so large…
And I pray I didn’t end up adding a negative to much. (but it kind of feels right.)

2

I’m not really sure what it is that is unclear.

As I understand it, shield regeneration and capacitor regeneration has the following properties:

  • ‘baseline’ or ‘average’ (which, as far as I know are just different words for the same thing) regeneration equals max_capacity / recharge_time
    (So if your ship has 500 hitpoints that it regenerates over a minute, it has 500/60 = 8.3 average regeneration)

  • the regeneration isn’t linear though: at minimum and maximum capacity the regeneration is pretty much 0, and has a peak recharge rate when you’re at 25% of maximum capacity.

(From EVE uni wiki:)

998×584 9.38 KB

  • at maximum regenration peak, the regeneration is 2.5 times the average regeneration. From the graph above you can see that at any Shield HP % (X-axis) between 3% and about 77% you’ll be above average regeneration (which is 100% on the Y-axis in the graph), but at the peak at 25% capacity you’ll be regenerating at 250% of the average regeneration.
    In other words, 20.8 hitpoints per second for my example

  • the shield regeneration value that you see ingame is the peak regeneration value, in other words: max_capacity / recharge_time x 2.5 – which is the regeneration value that you could sustain when you’re at peak recharge

I’m not sure if I answered your question, but I hoped it made things a little clearer. If not, feel free to keep asking! :smiley:

That happens when you make a linkable title for a new paragraph by putting a - right below the text, like this:

Linkable title

3

This held me up for a long time, as that’s how it’s explained everywhere.

But if you you divide yout total shield 100% on your shield recharge time, you will notice it’s allways x2.5 below average.

Took some time for me to picture it, ¨snip… Makes more sense if it’s 50¨% shield^

Max regen is actually x5 baseline, and x2.5 over average, just try it.

But this is also why im a little confused about the negatives, as it kind of conflicts whit what I just said. But it’s the only way I can make sense of the low regen at 0 and 100%

4

I’m still not sure what the problem is you have.

Could you give a practical example with ingame numbers and tell me what you think is strange about it?

For example:

afbeelding
afbeelding997×648 70.8 KB

This Nereus fit has 7700 hp that regenerates over 56 seconds.
That gives an average recharge rate of 7700/56 = 137.5 hp/s
When the ship is at 25% of it’s maximum shield capacity, in other words, when this ship has only 7700 x 0.25 = 1925 shield hitpoints left, it will be regenerating at peak recharge rate. Peak recharge rate in this case is 137.5 x 2.5 = 344 hp/s.

Note that this is slightly higher than what we see in the screenshot as the recharge rate.

I assume that this is either because CCP_round is terrible and you can never expect this game to round values correctly, or maybe because CCP didn’t want to give us too-optimistic a recharge value that only happens at peak recharge.
If I assume that those 56 seconds that we see in the window are in fact closer to 57 seconds, the earlier calculation results in a peak recharge rate of 7700/57*2.5 = 337 hp/s, which is the value we see as recharge rate in the screenshot.

5

just a few min, need a screenshot, To many skills involved there to give a good example, and I did the same mistake, sec sorry.

20220701154228_1
20220701154228_11920×1080 177 KB

This character got 5% in shields I think… Unavoideable as you start whith it.

but we really only need 2 numbers, going to use the one in fit window.

1008 hp / 625s = 1.6128 and it should be exactly x2.5 below average regen, witch you are displayed.

1.6128 x 2.5 = 4.032. So we actually had to increase the baseline by 250% to reach the displayed average, and it’s exactly the same in the next step to hit your maximum.

4.032 x 2.5 = 10.08, I belive should sum up to max regen.

So that was x5 up, al you need is to counter that with x5 down from baseline to find your minimum regen at 0% of maximum shield, and 100%. I haven’t tried but I should be close to the formula, and I have used no rounded numbers.

we found base at 1.6128 / 5 = 0.32256 as lowest regen or the regen you have at 100% and 0%

And as all variables are known someone better than me cold make a nice curve, I’m not good at this, but evrything I red did not match simulations.

The formula on the wiki are probably superb, but I got confused and wanted to try attacking it from another angle, we got so many known variables.

Oh and if you want to do the hp/s variant, it’s x2.5 over baseline already. so x2.5 should be max, but I explained this earlyer, and it’s not accurate because it’s rounded.

6

The first value, 1.62128, is the average regeneration. It is the total amount of hitpoints divided by the time it takes to regenerate all that.

The second value, 4.032, is the peak regeneration rate.
This is the most important value if you wish to fight enemies, because if enemies deal for example 3.5 damage per second sustained over time, you’ll live. If they deal 4.5 damage per second over time, you’ll eventually die.

This is also the number that shows in the fitting window, as this is the number you could compare to using for example a shield booster to recharge shields instead.

Your third number… I don’t think that is something.

You went up x2.5 and then another x2.5. I don’t know why you did the second multiplication (multiplying by 2.5 once already gives peak recharge rate, multiplying again doesn’t result in any useful number), but even if you did multiply by 2.5 twice, you would have multiplied by 2.5^2 = 6.25, not by 5.

Not sure how you calculate the base rate.

But if you fill in the following values in the recharge rate formula (again from the EVE uni wiki):

afbeelding

you get the following base rates:
C = 0 → dC/dt = some constant x (sqrt(0) - 0) = some constant x 0 = 0
C = C_max → dC/dt = some constant x (sqrt(1) - 1) = some constant x 0 = 0

The base rates at those points according to the formula are 0. Zero.

While this isn’t practical in a game (because then you’d never be able to recharge any shield if your shields go to 0) I assume there is some very low non-zero value at that point instead.

7

idk man, I’m really done arguing. and I might have missed somthing.

Only when I hover a item, and it says “Average Regeneration” I will belive it is so.

And the wiki you keep linking says " The peak recharge rate will be 2.5x the average rate and will occur when the shields are damaged to 25% of shield maximum capacity."

So I will keep beliving that to.

8

The number you see in the fitting window is your peak regeneration.

Average regeneration is peak regeneration divided by 2.5. You can calculate the average regeneration by dividing total shield hitpoints by the time it takes to recharge those hitpoints.

Base regeneration is not really a thing, I think, or if you want to refer to it, it’s 0. You regenerate 0 hitpoints per second when full or empty of hitpoints, according to the formula.

Current regeneration is the value you’re currently regenerating, based on the amount of shield your ship currently has left. This recharge rate can be as low as 0 when your shield is completely empty or full, or can be equal to average regeneration when you have about 3% or 77% of your shield capacity (eyeballing the graph there) and is above average if your shield capacity is anywhere between 3% and 77%. When your shield capacity is at 25% of your maximum, your current regeneration is equal to the peak regeneration.

9

Where does it say ‘average regeneration’ when you hover an item?

Sorry, it’s not my intention to argue here. I’m just trying to explain and also trying to figure out what it is that you’re missing.

10

I just don’t get why (on the screenshot) the top (4 hp/s) and the 2 numbers under Don’t match echother if you sum it out to hp/sec. and it really would not be the first tooltip they put in as a random 50% marker.

If I am to belive whats on the screen I got 4 hp/s, but on the line under it tells me I got /2.5 less if I sum it out.

11

That’s because the recharge rate shown in the fitting window is peak recharge rate, which is 2.5 times the average recharge rate.

Pilots who continue to fight in space will spend most of their time at peak recharge rate if they’re under heavy fire. Their ship will gradually lose more and more shield because of enemy shots, which means their recharge rate keeps going up and up, until their recharge rate went high enough to counter the incoming damage.

The recharge rate cannot go above peak recharge rate (which happens once three quarters of the shield is gone), so peak recharge value is the most important recharge stat for players to know. That is why you see peak recharge values for your shield (and also your capacitor) in that window, rather than the average rate.

Now, it can happen that the incoming damage is higher than your peak recharge rate, or is coming in with enough damage at once that your ships shield falls below 25%. At that point, it’s time to flee because it means your shield tank is considered ‘broken’. Your recharge rate is below peak value, you cannot handle the incoming damage and will die if you stay around under so much fire. Time to warp away!

So, why don’t the numbers of hp/s and total hitpoints divided by recharge time in the fitting window match up?

If you calculate the hp/sec by dividing total hitpoints by recharge time you get the average recharge rate. But for pilots in space that average recharge rate is not relevant, what they want to know is how much they can recharge at their peak recharge rate, which tells them how much dps from enemy ships they can tank.

That’s why the fitting window shows you the peak recharge rate of 4 hp/s, which is 2.5 times the average rate, rather than the average recharge rate of 1008/625 = 1.6 hp/s.

12

Does this help a little?

afbeelding
afbeelding961×557 29.6 KB

3 Likes
13

i was thinking about marking that up. Im to lazy.

Well played.

14

yeah your probably right, and i’m to tired to find what I supposed to anyway, thanks for the advices.

Oh we agree on the charts, no worries.

Jup got it, to stubborn about as silly tooltip.

15

Btw, thanks.
And sorry for being a stubborn idiot.

16

Hey no problem!

Glad that it’s a bit more clear now!

17

I know I made a total fool out of myself, and only to many explanations made me see my errors.
I been staring at it for many hours now, and I’m a even bigger fool for not letting it go.

That picture is what set me out on this dumb mission in the first place (and it ended bad).

How does that shield start regenerating? And will it ever stop before the game run out of decimals?
The 215% regen at 10% Shield Hp, is way higher than the other graph, why?

How can the other graph ramp up in less than 10 sec, when the last 10% are far from finished after 400, should it not be a 4/1 ratio?

Everything explained and shown starts and stops at absolute zero, except the formula itself.
The theory 0 at 0 just don’t work, Is there a game mechanic I have missed?

I’m really sorry.

1 Like
18

Don’t feel bad. Most players are not smart enough to even ask.

5 Likes
19

Like MB ThePhotographer said, don’t feel bad. You’re asking, which is great!

Also I don’t mind trying to answer questions. :smiley:

This is something your questions made me realise, it is indeed strange!

According to the formula, the shield regeneration when a ship has 0 shield is 0. And with 0 shield regeneration, there’s no way a ship without shields can start regenerating their shield.

I guess this is part of where your confusion came from?

I think that that the formula is not entirely correct at that point, as we know from practice that ships with 0 shield HP can in fact regenerate shields.

My guess is that there must indeed be some kind of nonzero base regeneration when shield is at 0.
But I also think the exact amount isn’t really relevant for practical purposes: it’s just for the first tick of regeneration and all that matters is that it’s slightly more than 0, because that allows your shield values to start moving to the right on that graph and into known territory that some people in the past have experimentally determined to quite accurately show the behaviour of capacitor and shield recharge in this game.

(Which is a nice read. Lot of math too, so feel free to skip it and just use the resulting formula that ended up on the EVE uni wiki like I do. :stuck_out_tongue: )

Shield recharge stops when your shield is full, I assume. :wink:
It can take a while to get to that point though, as near that point your shield recharge is really low.

What other graph are you referring to?

Please link it!

Nope, you correctly noticed that the formula for shield recharge at 0 just doesn’t work. According to the formula the recharge rate at 0 is 0 and stays 0, so there’s no way it can go beyond 0 if the formula were completely true.

However, the formula is based on experimental results (see the thread I linked above) and is an approximation, not given to us by CCP.

It may not be entirely correct, but for practical purposes it’s good enough.

And at 0, the recharge rate must be at least a little above 0 for recharging to work.

20

Thanks for the kind words.
I really don’t deserve them though, last time I made a peak over the peak, as it was the only way I could find anything resembling average… And argued it for hours before I realised how stupid it was :frowning:

1 Like