What Are The Implications Of The Empress Catiz's Pronouncement?

[Synthetic_Cultist]

Empress Catiz 1 has made a Pronouncement on the Upwell Workforce Question.

I am now Curious to know about what Implications may arise from this Statement, and what classes of Beings are affected by it.

The Comments about “those who consider their bodies profane or filled with sin might feel the need to cast them off”, and “Those considering Upwell’s invitation must maintain their faith. No matter what world they live in, or what flesh they inhabit, they must carry their devotion to Amarr with them.” are particularly of Interest.

From my Viewpoint, these statements would appear to Condone, or at least Not Condemn, such things as: Persons whose Consciousness is transferred to a Machine, [the most famous Being of this nature is the Zainou founder Todo Kirkinen who Pioneered the Idea], as well as Persons whose Consciousness is transferred to an Unusual Body, [Some extreme Bodymod Enthusiasts use consciousness transfer into exotic Bodies].

What do people Think about this Subject ?

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

Basically she says “you must not use this thing to escape our rule, or else” and “hey I know, what about making people we want to punish into cloned slavery workforce”, only with more words and veiled in Scripture.

[Synthetic_Cultist]

I had Not considered those Implications.

Perhaps I am Too Naive.

[Deckhard_Aura]

I have always been told that being a Capsuleer would sully my mortal frame and cast me as unfit in the eyes of God and the Empress. I still have faith, but this message seems a little confusing for someone like myself. Does this mean I am still expected to serve the Empire? Am I still welcome as a faithful member of the Empire?

Are the Upwell clones somehow different than Capsuleers so that they’re welcome but we were less welcome?

Heh, I haven’t gone to Amarr in quite a while, maybe I’m rusty on the details for current scripture.

[Synthetic_Cultist]

I was Under the Impression that the Theology Council had been Contemplating the Clone Question for a number of Years.

There was a Theology Council Announcement fairly Recently, that clarified the Position.

[Deckhard_Aura]

Ah! I didn’t see this announcement. It’s news to me. Fascinating.

[Laura_Elasce]

It certainly could be taken to mean those things.

It could be taken to mean other, more positive things.

Perhaps given the history involved one might be inclined to think the former, though, rather understandably.

But I am a charitable and hopeful person, so I shall perhaps choose to take it in a more positive light.

Some people may, for whatever reason, feel their body is not right for them. The body they were born with does not align with them spiritually, perhaps, to borrow language. And so perhaps this might be taken as saying that it is reasonable to cast it off in such situations, though from what we now know of the Upwell process, it does seem that for the majority of people, this is not in fact a thing they are actually offering. So one does have some worry there, given the context. But the words themselves do ring true.

The idea of carrying one’s devotion to Amarr with them is perhaps not the words I would use (though as a diversion, the word Amarr originally had the meaning of ‘our,’ thus the ‘Amarr faith’ would be ‘our faith’ – and interesting thread to pursue at some point), given that while I am a member of the Faith, I am very much also Gallente. Still, the idea of carrying with one that which is true to one’s self, no matter what body one might be in, is certainly a concept that we might take value from.

All in all, words that could be taken in multiple ways, which is perhaps in some ways wise of her. Obviously our own experiences will color the ways in which we take them. But I am hopeful, and will take things in the best way I can until things make me do otherwise, or at least that is what I prefer to do.

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

It is very well for you if your optimism and charity carry so far that you take the Amarr Throne as a likely proponent of individual freedom of choice.

Mine don’t.

[Cain_Aloga]

@Laura_Elasce

It certainly could be taken to mean those things.

It could be taken to mean other, more positive things.

One of the many advantages of vaguely worded and lofty rhetoric is that you can simultaneously say many things to many people, depending on what they want to hear.

[Laura_Elasce]

That is indeed true. Which, of course, is exactly what one would expect from someone in the Empress’s position, of course.

And yes, it certainly is well for me to be able to take her words in the best possible way. I definitely have the privilege of being able to do so. I certainly understand why you’re unable to. We have, of course, very different experiences and situations. I would not expect you to take it in any other way, and I do apologize if my words implied that I thought it was wrong of you to not take it positively – simply that for some of us, it is an option. But of course, not everyone has that same luxury.

[Isha_Vuld]

I suppose that would depend on where you stand on the Faith to begin with.

To the wise and faithless, I imagine most will take this as merely yet more evidence that the Amarrian faith is hollow and meaningless, and that God is as fake as the sanctity they bestow on their souls.

In other words, yet another sign that the Empress and her advisors will twist and bend the words of their religion to suit their own selfish ends whenever it is convienent, happily reinterpeting or even re-assessing scripture as needed.

To those of faith, I can imagine they might have some emotions too…

Let me take you all on a little thought exersize: If I somehow take all of the Scriptures that were ever written, run them through a printer, and ask a priest if the copied texts are as sacred as the original, what do you suppose he would tell me?

That it is still holy, granted, but as holy as the original, handwritten work? Absolutely not! The words may be the same, but it has none of the history, none of the achievements that it took to create in it. It lacks the -soul- of the original.

And the same should go for clones, like us and the Upwell workforce, surely?
I read entire volumes about the purity and piety of the True Amarr, how they are the holiest, pure and inviolable, because they descend from the original faithful of Amarr Isle. Because purity and piety is in the blood, and flesh! Because the deeds of your ancestors matter to you as well, as your flesh is their flesh, and your blood is their blood!

So what does it say about your purity when you are more closely related to the chips in the computer I am using to type this, then the ancestors who slaved away during the foundation of the Empire?!

A clone is not descended from anyone. A clone is a copy. A printed imitation, grown in a lab and copied from the original by science. There is no line of mothers and fathers, just test tubes and codes of ones and zeroes.

Can you imagine where this is going to go?
“Sacred flesh may not be remade, but those who consider their bodies profane or filled with sin might feel the need to cast them off.”

So is the precedent here that you can go around comitting sin and then cast the body off as easily as one might a coat, and somehow, you are all pure and inviolable again?
Are Amarr companies going to start selling “pure” clone bodies for the sinful to upload in to as a rite of cleansing? As a kind of modern “Spend enough money and we will absolve you of all your sins” sort of arrangement?

Can you, as a “lesser race” like a Ni-Kunni or a Minmatar, simply upload your mind into a clone of a True Amarr body and be considered completely pure?
After all, your bloodline would be theirs at that point! The genes in your body theirs.

I may be a heretic, but I was made to read the same books as Imperial, and with every year that passes I feel like more and more mental gymnastics are required to make the religion make even a tiny lick of sense.

With any luck, proclamations like this will make more people ask much needed questions. And maybe even draw some good conclusions.

[Laura_Elasce]

Congratulations on winning the argument against things almost no one believes and that are not part of the mainstream Amarr faith.

I suppose you have shown one reason some heresies are, in fact, heresies.

[Utari_Onzo]

While there is plenty in this thread I might take umbrage or disagree with, I post to contest only one thing here, that the suggestion of reinterpreting or reassessing Scripture is somehow a dirty action. It is not.

The Scripture of Amarr is a living document; amended, updated, added to, removed from as necessary from guidance of the Theology Council, the Throne and the manifest will of God. It is the entire body of all theological canon, approved and sanctified writings and lectures, laws and treaties and other such documents of legal, spiritual and cultural import.

There is ample precedent for the editing, revisiting and updating of all aspects of Scripture, and long debates over interpretation from a wide range of opinions among our clergy. This is because Scripture is the work of man, inspired by God yes, but an imperfect record of our collective Will and Knowledge of the Divine and good governance. It is entirely within the competence of the Throne and the Theological Council to continually work on assessing Scripture as it means in our modern times as new developments, new discoveries and new spiritual interpretations and inspirations add and enrich our people. We are far from culturally static, or technologically or scientifically adverse, as some ignorant voices like to make out.

[Laura_Elasce]

Indeed, the original reason for the creation of the Theology Council some one and a half millennia ago was to conduct edits to the Scriptures. There were a great deal of changes made to the Scriptures during this period, the Moral Reforms, and there have been orderly changes, guided by the wisdom of the Theology Council, ever since. They were of course not static before that, but the procedure for changes was less codified and it happened in a much less orderly and regular fashion.

The Scriptures are very much a living part of Amarr culture, hardly immutable, though not to be changed without cause. They guide Amarr culture, but also change as Amarr culture and its needs change. For them to remain immutably the same would be as strange as the secular legal code of the Federation staying forever the same – certain aspects of it remain core, yes, but there are always bits being added or removed as the times change, and one generation may interpret the meaning of parts of it in a very different way than their ancestors did.