What is your definition of PVP?

Okay then i guess claiming most people dont do PVP is propaganda and claiming most people PVP is not. Good talk :slight_smile:

Nope.

Personally I’m a big fan of the definition laid out by the contemporary Dracvladian school of player interaction. “PvP” specifically means any combat engagement between mutually-consenting combatants in a sanctioned area of space (e.g. null-sec). Anything outside of this purview is relegated to the concept of non-sanctioned “PK” (player-killer/ing) niche grief-play.

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Denying people fun in their space and the usage of their space.

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Congratulations the first time I actually agree and see your message!

Everything.

:smirk: :popcorn: :dealwithitparrot:

Ah, your usual ‘most people’ trick where you spin a bogus narrative and argue against your own straw man.

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Certain people generally only claim this when you use numbers and data to prove that actual PvP is a relatively small portion of EVE. Then they dust off the “everything is PvP” argument. Of course, these are generally the same people that complain that CCP has “neutered” PvP, and that “carebears” are “afraid” of PvP, but logical consistency isn’t really what they’re about.

PvP was originally just the short form for “PvP combat”. You can re-define “player vs player” to suit any current circumstance, but lacking an adjusted definition, it refers to combat only, not markets or mining or posting insulting references to one’s ancestry.

So ganking, ambushing, fleet battles, all PvP. If there’s weapons and damage involved between players, it’s PvP.

Some players, like myself, in some circumstances, refer to “real” PvP: that’s to differentiate actual combat from slaughtering sheep. Because for one thing, when one of the targets doesn’t even have a weapon, that’s not “combat”. However it’s still unquestionably PvP, just not something one should be overly bragging about their “combat” skills, or how tough and dangerous they are.

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That’s just another straw man in a thread full of straw men. PvP literally means player versus player. That does not inherently imply anything about anyone shooting back. If a player takes any action ‘versus’ another player, that is by definition PvP !

You can’t have something real-er than the actual definition. ‘Real PvP’ is a complete oxymoron, as by definition all PvP is ‘real’ PvP.

I wrote this post using ‘real letters of the alphabet’ :slight_smile:

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I don’t think it’s a strawman. The v in PvP means against. When I operate a ship to explore, travel or mine I don’t do those activities against anyone, I’m just traveling/exploring/mining dude, I’m not against anyone when I do those things but the game being what it is, hek, shoot anything that moves and ask questions later, right? F-it, it’s just a game anyway.

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Cambridge Dictionary definition of Versus

one team or person competing against another

But i guess it also means something else

Well, what if the attacker in that scenario is doing it as a preventive measure because they’re concerned that you’ll attack them first? I would say that’s a reasonable concern.

I think that the real issue with the “PvP” in the game is that there’s no way to signal to strangers that you’re a non-combatant. CCP needs to add some kind of feature to the game that would convey this message at a glance. They could add some kind of skin to the game that, for example, has a large decal that clearly labels you as a PvP non-threat:

image

Or maybe there could be a large hologram floating above your ship that says “Don’t shoot, this is a non-combatant vessel!” They could add something to the overview as well, like a sort of player tag that says “{FRIENDLY}” before the rest of your name.

I bet this would solve most of the issues with the non-real PvP niche PK grief-play in the game. Maybe the problem all along has been that players simply don’t know that they’re not supposed to shoot someone.

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Is this the No PvP thread? Is it safe for @Iceacid_Frostpacker to mine here without a permit?

:smirk:

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Yeah but that’s just objectively not true. Let’s say I’m in a large nullsec group, and several other large nullsec groups have decided that they are going to destroy everything I have in an attempt to force me from the game. They produce thousands of battleships, caps, BCs etc and spend months trying to smash everything I have.

So I and my friends make dozens of dangerous jumps through wormholes and bubbled gates deep into enemy territory and destroy an enemy Rorq to try and slow their ship production. A poor, defenseless mining ship with nary a gun equipped, simply playing the game in peace and quiet. Is that the argument that that is NOT PvP?

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Yes it most definitely is a straw man. If you get a court case of ‘A versus B’ then A is attacking B and that does not automatically mean B is attacking A. So even the court system recognises ‘versus’ as one person being the plaintif or ‘attacker’ and another being the ‘defendant’. If a person gets done on a speeding charge, it is entirely one sided…and the defendant railing against the iniquities of capitalism and the Illuminati conspiracy run by shape shifting lizards makes zero difference.

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Amusing…but you already know that’s nonsense. Undocking is already consent to PvP and always has been. There is simply no such thing as ‘non consensual PvP’ in Eve. Thus there really is no problem to ‘fix’.

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let me ask you something @Wesfahrn mr mighty agenda seeker and relative ignoramus of EvE as a whole…

If you are mining…and someone like me or my group lands…and mine any rock you are lazing or droning out from under you…and follow you every time you move to a different belt and rinse and repeat…until you leave system…is that or is that not PvP?

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thats correct… and if youre “fighting” AGAINST other market traders because you want to have more controle about a specific part of the market … then it is AGAINST other ppl → PvP !

we all know that “normaly” PvP only means shooting other ppl … but thats per definition not correct because eve has more ways to create “wars” then only your “real” pvp !

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I foresee a new entry into people’s bio. This would definitely stop me:

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Well the market hasn’t collapsed in on itself yet so I’m willing to venture out and say enough people PvP to keep things moving.

If no one is blowing stuff up, no one is buying anything, meaning no one can sell anything, meaning no one can build anything, meaning no one needs Ore that’s mined.

The EvE economic apocalypse. So by all means, go blow stuff up, maybe even me sometimes. I’ll take one for the team.

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