What will it take to remove attributes and remaps from EVE Online? Are training speed multipliers the harbinger of their destruction?

Communications Center General Discussion
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As a member of CSM X, I saw discussion from multiple CSMs, including myself, asking CCP to consider the removal of Attributes and the remapping system that goes with it. That was two years ago.

CCP has publicly stated that this system is entrenched due to the implant market. Most implants are inherently tied to attributes, and also heavily tied to LP stores and the game economy as a whole. Simply removing attributes would require a huge rework of implants and could destroy LP based markets in the process.

With the implementation of Alpha/Omega training speeds (1x for Alpha, 2x for Omega) last year, I wonder if it might soon be possible to work around this obstacle. If attributes were removed from the game, every character could have the base 2x training speed. Then simply give implants that currently boost attributes a direct training speed multiplier instead. For instance, certain implants could give 0.15x more training speed each. Or a pirate set might give 0.5x more training speed, but only if you have the full set installed.

Why Remove Attributes?
While many RPGs have attributes or something like them, most games provide meaningful gameplay or character play style possibilities around them. A character with high strength might deal more melee damage or carry more equipment. A character with high charisma might have more dialog options with NPCs or lower prices on goods.

In EVE Online, attributes do nothing interesting. They affect your training rate of specific skills, and nothing else.

I’m not advocating for the introduction of gameplay modifiers from attributes. Implants already serve this role. However, a system that serves no gameplay purpose other than to force you to change your life he allocation of a set of arbitrary values once per year is not interesting or valuable. You might as well ask players to play one round of Starcraft each year for a small boost to XP.

Players who defend attributes, in my experience, believe it either makes their character unique, or they believe it is a valuable form of min/maxing. But without the ability for other players to know what your attributes are, either directly or indirectly, that specialization is primarily in one’s own head. If we move the entire system to implants, at least kill mails can tell the story of how a pilot is personally specialized.

I’m curious to know what others think. And I’m curious if the training speed bar introduced with Alpha players is a sign that CCP does intend to move in this direction at some point in the mid term future.

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The main problem is that they need to replace the implants that drop in sites with something of equal value to avoid hitting exploration rewards, then you’d also need to reimburse the existing implants somehow.

Figure out how to fix those issues and then you can look at removing the implants and attributes.

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Mr. Chance Ravinne already covered that, simply replace the +attribute with a +TrainingSpeed Multiplier and would only affect the Implant market insignificantly.

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attributes are so meaningless i forgot they existed
i think i remapped this character intelligence perception when i first made it and ill never probably never remap it again

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I missed that bit as I’m in work :smiley: That makes sense. Since the role playing element and inherent value of SP have been diluted/removed by skill extractors and injectors there’s probably not much point in keeping them now.

I would however suggest that any new implants are dropped as BPC’s/bought as BPC’s with LP. That would also give a boost to PI and manufacture.

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Your proposal makes sense, but I think you aren’t understanding what CCP is saying. They don’t want to tackle the work because:

  1. It’s too much work for no gain at all (the effects of skills and training speed are exactly like before).
  2. They can’t predict and thus fear the possible ramifications this change could have on the economy.

So as a result, keep pushing, but I think what you’ll get is CCP just hides any mention of “attributes” from the User Interface but otherwise keeps the underlying code the same (with attributes). Changes the verbiage on implants to say “+7% training speed for support and industry skills” instead of +“3 int / mem”. Basically, just a cover-up, like they did with the actual skill POINT numbers.

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CCP already killed a lot of reasons to do in implants with citadels thanks to the timer-less swapping of clones and thus the effective removal of implant loss in PVP. This was a first step in the assault in implants and attributes.

Personally, I can’t be bothered with implants any more and stay in an empty clone all the time. Thanks to one of CCP’s most stupid decisions in a decade – namely the enforcement of session change timers --, it is a major inconvenience to swap clones, ships and undock now.

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Agreed that attributes don’t matter that much. But do they hurt the game? Would removing them improve the game? I don’t think so. So why devote significant development resources, take risks with the economy balance if there is nothing to gain or fix in the first place.

As far as replacing them with implants is concerned, it may not matter much to older players but newer ones will be impacted, possibly severely. I my early days I remapped aggressively to be where I wanted to be as fast as possible and being eventually podded had no impact. Let’s say that a new player wants an effective +7% in mem/will for example: he has two ways of achieving that, 1) a remap (or appropriate initial map) plus an eventual cheap implant. 2) a very expensive implant. If attributes go away, it will only be possible through implants which can be lost.

I don’t know how I would have reacted to the loss of a +7 implant in my early days vs a +4 from attributes and a +3 from standard implant. Probably a huge wallet hit (depending on the market ofc) or the frustration of your training queue suddenly lasting longer.

Also, the current attribute system allows you to orient your career using a different map or remap for a PVP alt and, say, an industrial one. By moving all the bonuses to implants, the more active player would potentially suffer bigger losses in bonuses compared to an indy who would never be at risk of losing its implants.

Lastly, as I jump from clone to clone, I’d like to keep a somewhat similar base training rate and not have to purchase/earn x sets of “attribute” implants. But that’s just me.

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Look soon for Attribute Removal Tool in NES store near you. Will come with a nice, sharp blade and wooden frame with a basket. Get rid of all your doubts and problems now! Make yourself unoriginal! Call CPP right now! 666 666 666. :smiling_imp:

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I’d prefer you didn’t change basic attributes. They don’t have any negative impact on gameplay, and the positive impact that a cheap set of improved implants does noticeably cut training times. I see no reason to mess with another mechanic for no reason.

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Having to remap or you “fall behind” the veterans who can get max SP/hr arguably promotes the view that newbies have that they’ll never catch up to the veterans.

And he’s not trying to replace attributes with implants, he’s trying to remove attributes altogether and remove the +3 / +5 's from the existing implants, leaving only the skill percentage boosts from hardwired’s and sets. Because implants that affect SP/hr arguably dissuade newbies from undocking and participating in PVP (implants are PVP deterrents).

Anyway, it’s been argued back and forth; I didn’t intend to discuss it again, I just wanted to point out why CCP is resisting the change. I mean, they’ve had CSM’s pushing for it for several years and they’re still resisting, despite the arguably logical arguments presented.

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That’s a non-issue now that you can switch clones without timer in a citadel structure.

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lol I sincerely don’t believe that is a wedge driving new players and older players apart, at least not one that doesn’t already have a solution. It’s an expectation that people who have been around longer will usually have more SP unless you’ve been slamming skill injectors like you’re trying to overdose off them. At what point did anyone complain that attributes aren’t a level playing field?

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It is kind of fun through planning your character out on how you wanna train him :frowning:

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I argued that for a long time before the SP trading came in. Now it’s a bit irrelevant.

Instead of new players saving up for better attribute implants it is better for them to save up to by hardwire sets that boost training level along with something else, or just buy injectors directly.

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When I first started this game my training was all over the place and didn’t really know about attributes and remaps, In fact I think I wasted the 2 free and 1 annual remap. Then I tried doing year long plans in evemon and used that app to optimize training, after a while I coupled that with a set of +5s which I accidently lost in a jump cloning accident :confused: And even then before the year was out I had needed to go train something else.

A little more recently I decided to do away with all that, I saw a post by someone who suggested attributes for an even/middle of the road plan and I set some of my toons to that. I have a set of +3s still I think but if that clone ever dies i’ll probably not bother.

I would like to see the whole thing altered, CCP are capable of bringing in big changes such as the current one with moon mining and reactions so they can do it with implants, either get the implants to do other things such as what you suggested although of course the mega rich would get faster training times than newer less able players but then that is the way it’s always been.

I am sure though that greater minds than mine could think of the alternatives. If you change what the thing does, rather than just get rid of it then would it really be pulling the carpet out from under anything?

I don’t think they will go anytime soon though, I think they will stay so is it too cheeky to ask for more remaps, a year is a hell of a commitment, a remap every 3 months would be nice. then we can be more flexible.

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It’s not fun when you’re locked into a gimped remap for months because you joined a new corp and need to train for a specific doctrine or whatever. You can’t always plan for every eventuality. Getting rid of the attributes has made sense for a long time.

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Eye wunce remaped my brane and nou eye cant qite think porperly no moar

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Intelligence, eh? Well that certainly didn’t help you at all now. :wink: j/k sorry, low-hanging fruit…

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you’re 14 years late mate.