The means are irrelevant as long as there’s an explosion in the end.
I believe you may be misconstruing the idea of destination with the idea of abstination. That which is before us is, by the Scriptures, predestined. However, we are commanded to be active in the Body of God. To do otherwise does not necessarily carry the whole of the Amarr, for to do so indicates that the Body of God is to be carried individually, not collectively.
Therein lies the crux of the matter; no single Amarr could ever possibly carry on the great Work, and the command to Reclaim is the way to bring all people unto God’s service. We must all achieve those works together.
This is important, because many do not understand why so many others are punished for the transgressions of a few. Why, for example, the people were made to suffer in darkness for the transgressions of Amash-Akura until his path was righted. That is because to be lazy, to shirk from the work, is a personal transgression and carries personal consequence (damnation before God and separation from the Body). This is what you refer to. But the great Work is the work of the people of Amarr, collectively, and to shirk it is the failure of the people, and the people are destined to succeed.
I think where you may be attempting to move with your reasoning is “succeed at what”? We are told that we shall inherit the Heavens. The Reclamation is a moving target that tests the faith. It is an all encompassing goal, one which cannot be garnered alone. Hence we are commanded to stand together over and over through the Scriptures. We may strive toward God’s plan, but God’s works require unity, for alone we are weak.
And so, while something may seem like a good idea, unilateral attempts to achieve the “correct” ends, even if they are not midguided, are also a sin. When Amash-Akura commanded the Sefrim to assail Molok, it is unquestioned that he had the correct ends in sight. What dogged him were his means, that he not only shirked his duty but shirked all of his peoples’ duty. Thus were all punished with darkness.
The Amarr people will succeed so long as the Amarr people continue, and surely darkness will guide us from the wrong path or cause us to light the way for the rest of the Body.
This is why the means are so important, Samira, because to think we know better than all, without their input, is surely heresy whether we are correct or not. What may seem so correct may not be correct. Our wars for freedom may kill more than they free, and make conditions worse for those who stay. Our acts in our own interest may rob the needy and shirk our responsibilities. Our calls for absolution will surely leave our brothers and sisters in darkness if we do not stand with them and call in unison.
So while I wouldn’t say you are incorrect in assuming we do have to do something, that’s the easy part. God has commanded us to do a great many things. But he has assured us of our destiny, as the inertia of our great Empire is unstoppable so long as it is along the path of God. That inertia is gone the moment we stray and call our brothers lost.
Proving your faith is a personal goal, but we were not to live for personal reasons. The purpose of Amarr is purity, and if all of the Body is pure, the path is assured.
3 Likes
In an imperfect world filled with imperfect being and if there is no alternative, in a lot of situations that would be the case. It may take eternity for it to change or never.
3 Likes
I’ll not get into a debate about fate. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn’t. Only God knows the truth. But such truth is not revealed to us just because things happen to go our way, or don’t, and to believe things are destined to turn out right in the end no matter what you do is to open the doors for apathy and inaction. Just because we scored triumphs does not mean the ends were good, and our failings are not diminished just because it might have been destiny to fail. Maybe God knows how everything will transpire, knows whether we will succeed or fail in carrying out His commands, but that says nothing about Amarr’s purity. Especially not by the writings of a scripture that can be changed on a whim by flawed human beings.
This is true.
And our wars for the Reclaiming may have damned more than they saved. Our calls for obedience and submission in the name of the faith, left us blind to that faith becoming twisted and corrupted.
Amarr thinks it knows better, Baracca. The emperor, the heirs, the Holders, all of Amarr are raised in this idea that we are perfect and right and can do no wrong. And in that belief, so assured of our destiny, we miss the sickness that spreads through our veins, until that which made us better is no longer the truth we hold to. We lost Ametat and Avetat. We lost the guidance of the sefrim. Until these are restored to us, until we redeem ourselves, through our own merits rather than expecting God to do it for us, we cannot be sure in our destiny.
You believe Vak’Atioth may have been a message that we were wrong. It may have been that, indeed. Whether as direct punishment by God Himself or just the end consequence of many poor decisions, we brought it on ourselves. And in light of that, and in light of all of the other, very many signs that have been showed to us of our falling into darkness, we must ask ourselves what is truly right, how much of what we are, what we have believed, even over hundreds or thousands of years, is what God wants of us.
So long as it is along the path of God. If it has strayed from that path, if the Body is not pure, then the sickness in it must be cut out. To do otherwise would be a betrayal of our duty. The enemies of the inside must be controlled.
1 Like
The problem with all of this, Samira, isn’t necessarily that any of it is wrong. It’s that there are, as you mentioned, so many ‘ifs’ involved. If you are correct that there is a deep sickness, if there is something that must be defeated, if we have fallen off the path of God, these statements support precisely that point. You yourself have said you do not know. The Scriptures tell us that we have a destiny so long as we cleave to the path, we are told we will find the strength to walk that path shoulder to shoulder with our brothers.
And, practicably, this has proven true. Our wars of conquest might well have done much harm. Those recent wars may have well ended in failure. The one thing we can be sure of is that had the ends of those two period been important, God could have sent some Sefrim armada down to save those we conquered or to save us. He did neither, and that bane was included in the Scripture for a purpose.
The great difference between the two of our points, Samira, is that I understand that I am one of those flawed beings, and I see the ability to interpret our Scripture in new light to be a blessing, not a condemnation. Where you see enemies among our people to burn, I see a Body in need of healing and learning. Only the command can teach, not the rod alone. Most importantly, irrespective of how I feel about each specific scenario, I am but one Archbishop in a great sea of the faithful. I see everything from my one point in space, traveled as it is. I understand that my perspective is lone, and there is every chance I do not have the information required to make an informed, unilateral decision.
One, of course, can’t both hold true that we cannot precisely know the path of God before we walk, and also that we may individually know best.
I ask daily whether we do what is truly right, but also if I am truly wrong. That is the great humility of God, his greatest blessing is the knowledge that we are one of many, not the alpha and omega but simply a point in space. I have my theological opinions, I share them when it is my place to do so, they may not be so dissimilar to yours. However, I am not one to wholesale call those whose perspectives I cannot see from necessarily deserving of the torch. You and I and everyone else is very likely wrong in fundamental, obvious ways we simply cannot understand from our positions alone.
So I continue to ask whether I am right and whether I am wrong. I also ask others whether I am right and wrong. I hear their counsel, I value it, and I respect it. I walk assured that my brothers and sisters will hold me right when I wander from the path. I can also assure them that I shall do all I can to draw them along the path with me when they stumble.
In either case, we will do so together. I will not abandon them or turn the sword to them when I find them inconvenient or when they counsel me in ways I dislike. Only with their fellowship have I come so far, and upon the tower built by millennia of our people working together can I stand today. Their shoulders are a scaffold with which I stand. Together we will walk to Heaven, and even had I the way alone, I would not leave them to wander the darkness. I would lead with all my zeal, knowing my duty is done and one day we shall inevitably arrive.
1 Like
I would say in my experience that the ends almost always justifies the means, or why would you find yourself doing it in the first place. Hell, this is a question we likely don’t even ask ourselves upon undocking on a danergous mission and it’s always relevant given the lives that are put on the line. But that moment you achieve your goal truly answers that. If you feel anything but elated…it wasn’t worth it. I find we are more numb to the fall out then we dare admit.
2 Likes
Oh dear, we have some theologians at it.
Elsie, what the hell have you done?
6 Likes
Asked a question.
4 Likes
An interesting and important one at that.
Very unlike the IGS.
7 Likes
Too bad one half of the theological debate is coming from a delusional fool.
1 Like
Well, then you should get involved and show us what a real fool can do!
4 Likes
He didn’t, but the fact that He did not is not proof that we did right.
And I am a former slave whose first response to people asking me things about the faith used to be, ‘I’m not a priest, I can’t speak properly on this.’ I am a very flawed person, and doubt a great many things that I think and believe and do. Once, I blamed those flaws on my being Minmatar. Nowadays, my insecurities don’t have such a clear target.
I do not know the truth. For all I know, everything I am doing is wrong, and my interpretations flawed. And for a long time, the inklings of doubt I had were something I denied and even punished myself for. I believed that to even think such things demonstrated a wrongness in my character. But enough has transpired, enough evidence, enough hypocrisies has been shown to me, that I can no longer take for granted what the leaders of our faith say is supposed to be right. Nor can I look at Scripture, knowing that these very same flawed people rewrite it freely, and believe everything from it to be right. And thus, what is right is not known to me. I can only follow the lessons I was taught about what Amarr is supposed to be, and my own conscience, and pray that God will guide me to the right path.
I question whether I am right or wrong, and consider the perspectives of others on whether I am right or wrong. And I, in turn, speak my beliefs to others, because to scheme and plot in secret, as some others who believe there are wrongs do, would do nothing to fix those wrongs. I seek to discover what is right, and I push those questions to others in the hopes that they will stop and think about what is and isn’t right, too. Some people tell me my strategy is flawed, that ‘showing my hand’ is acting prematurely and guaranteeing failure, but it is only by presenting these questions to others that the chance for change will happen at all. That I am in a lone corporation, shunned by some, does not mean I act alone.
My goal, my duty, is to serve God. To Reclaim that which he has given, to cultivate the spirit of mankind, to heal and teach. But it is only when the Body is pure that it reach out to others; if it is sick, then it will spread that sickness. You say only the command can teach, not the rod alone. And this is true. But without the rod, the scalpel, the torch, the Body cannot be excised of the tumors and given the chance to heal. Only through many hardships is a man stripped to his very foundations, and in such a state, devoid of distractions, is his soul free to soar and become closer to God.
1 Like
Which One is Which ?
1 Like
Upon my most recent return to Amarr space, I had a meeting with a Holder of our people that was very much the same as this discussion. He had decided to falsify documents in order to retain slaves beyond nine generations, attempting to circumvent an order our Empress Jemyl had dictated years ago. I was invited to interview him and give an independent assessment by his resident bishop (necessary for a prosecution of his status).
His rationale was thus, that Scripture had given him the unending task of leading his slaves to God, the work was not done, and the Empress was superceded by the original Scripture. To him, the Empress’s proclamation was a corruption, a mistake, one he was uniquely qualified, through his long tenure, to speak on. The Scripture must be immutable, or else God was somehow wrong. Surely, we would not mean to correct the thousands year old words of God?
This is a textbook seminary question, famously known as “The Dead God Question.” It sounds more ominous than it is, in fact. It is relatively self-evident that God exists, that the work proceeds, etc. However, it is the question that, if Scripture of a certain type is immutable, at what point did God die and become unable to communicate His Will? There can be no other explanation, were we to not have a process of interpreting his will today. We would have no way forward. God would have no answers for the Matari question, or the Federation, or even the Jove. God would have no way to communicate His will concerning the Drifters or Triglavians. You see the problem; all Creation is of God, how can his communications simply cease?
Through many methods, we interpret the Will concerning those things we have had no experience with. The great command, though, is we face them with unity. Some may fight, some may negotiate, we may not all do the exact same thing, but we shall all move forward with a clear goal and clear discussion. We will not outward deviate because no single one of us can comprehend all the things of Creation in order to individually interpret the Will of God. Our Empress is its final arbiter, but she has a Theology Council, a Body of God, even an infinitesimally small part of our Empire like myself has a role to play in making good decisions in the light of God’s Will and, most importantly, not making bad decisions unilaterally. Through communion, we temper our worst mistakes and impulses, move with purpose and with the weight of our Empire to reign us back and yet also to move us forward.
And so the question of “why do things change in the Empire, and why do some things stay the same?” isn’t a question of the perfection of God nor the Path changing arbitrarily, but of understanding ourselves and the Empire in the greater context of Creation. We are not insignificant, but we are lone pinpricks in the sea of the Empire. We may have a unique view, all of us, but that means there are a billion billion views different from ours in our Empire which can certainly see what we cannot. We all have value, but only in the context we can provide. We cannot provide that part of the whole while acting apart. Worse, we cannot receive the strength of the Body alone any more than any one of our cells can exist without the whole of our own bodies.
Returning to the topic of the discussion, then, we see why the means are so much more important than the ends. We cannot see the whole with enough perspective and clarity to properly judge the good or ill of the ends, nor to truly judge the wholeness of the means. The Empire is to vast, Creation even larger. All we can truly judge, the sole mechanism we have to truly complete the Work, is that we serve rightly as we are able. Only when all motive is pure will we collectively have the tools to complete it.
2 Likes
I understand the purpose of mutable Scripture, and in certain ways change is valuable. But it also means that in times of strife and turmoil, when it is impossible to determine what is right, Scripture itself is no more reliable than those who write it. One has to ask, “Is this God’s will, or is it the interpretation of God’s will by a flawed human? Or worse, an intentional powerplay by a deceiver?” And so the foundation of our faith becomes open to doubt, leaving us still with no way forward.
Have we been? The bodies of power in Amarr have turned inward on themselves, covering up each other’s sins and working to safeguard their own power. Garkeh Khanid, the traitor who refused to commit Shathol’Syn, stole a third of the navy and a 5th of its territory, declared man’s law above God’s, and violated Sacred Flesh, struck from the Book of Records, was pardoned and made an heir again with no punishment. Jamyl, who violated Shathol’Syn and Sacred Flesh, was made empress and a lie about her “miraculous return” pushed on the people of Amarr. Idonis Ardishapur, the Khanid lords at Kahah, and other lords, have massacred slaves, and others run disgusting breeding facilities or sell slaves to blooders or Sansha’s Nation, all in violation of Amash-Akura’s laws on the appropriate treatment of enemies. Blood Raiders performing their own sacrifices infest the 24th Imperial Crusade and, by evidence of the Red Chamberlain and a blooder being allowed to participate in the Succession Trials, the highest offices of Amarr itself. The Theology Council refuses to rule against betrayals of the faith because the cases are controversial, unless it fits the material needs of a new empress in which case it will rush the decision.
Meanwhile, slaves are kept in bonds for generations, for the crimes of people who died thousands of years ago. Punishment is meted out on those who committed no crime of their own, because they have no power to contest it, while those who do have power are given free reign to act as they please excepting when they offend someone with greater power than they. Our lords have made a mockery of the purpose of Blessed Servitude with this hypocrisy.
And those who recognize these improprieties? Instead of bringing it forward into the light of day, to make the issue public and known to all, scheme in the shadows, because they are afraid of what would happen to them if they spoke out. Of course, even when we have spoken out, whether in private channels or public ones, the concerns are swept under the rug and ignored. The Grand Inquisitor of the Ministry of Internal Order said he would do something about blooders in the militia when we reported slave sacrifices, and never did. When Catiz was called to end slave sell orders on the SCC markets because it violated the laws that declare only Holders have the right to own slaves and because those orders are used to facilitate blood sacrifices, she rejected it. When the Theology Council has been called to rule against slave abuse or TCMCs, they refuse. And when we called out the wrongness of a blooder being approved as a Champion-Candidate for the Succession Trials, it was defended, not just by the Khanid lord responsible for the decision (Lord Chakaid, of course), but by the Imperial coordinator of the trials, Cardinal Sourem Itharen.
We have not been tempering our worst impulses, we have been facilitating them.
3 Likes
Is it? I see no evidence of that at all.
5 Likes
So, who determines what is right? And how reliable is Scripture? We actually have a relatively reliable set of examples right here, so we’ll work with those.
Empress Jemyl I certainly did commit the Shathol’Syn, but violated the Sacred Flesh. And, in its wake, we have had time to evaluate both upon her passing. Who decided the Sacred Flesh doctrine was no longer applicable? Certainly every single one of us capsuleers. Everyone who has ever endorsed and used one of us to perform some necessary action. The Sacred Flesh doctrine (note, that a doctrine is an inference made from Scriptural evidence, not a direct quotation) was already being debated by the Amarr, asking whether or not it was necessary and whether it was still a proper waymark on the Path, or whether it had become outdated in the face of modern medicine and science. Certainly, the doctrine of Sacred Flesh came from Scriptures that far predated clone-stamping as we know it today. This context is important, as we all lived with this debate being outstanding while I studied at Seminary. It both preceded me and succeeded my time as an acolyte.
What happened to decide the issue was the aforementioned miraculous return. By committing her Shathol’Syn, Empress Jemyl followed her Scriptural doctrine. She did precisely what was ‘required’, what the Scriptures literally said she should do. And at the same time, she rose from her clone, perfectly in time for the Elder Fleet’s arrival. It really was miraculous that all these things should occur at precisely the same time, that Jemyl should return with her miraculous armaments at precisely the time it would be most inconvenient for the Elder Fleet. Certainly, she could have simply gunned her way into power through the Empire itself, but she chose the right way by using those tools to protect the Empire, and only after he whom she committed her ritual to protect had himself been deposed. Even the Kor-Azor heir quickly bowed to such an act.
It is the stuff of our stories, a bona fide miracle in our time, and only our inherent ‘mastery’ of sciences allows us to turn our nose up at events which even now I am surprised happened as they did. I am pleased to have lived in such times and to have seen such things occur which will form Scripture of the future Empire. But, most importantly, it was then handed to the Theology Council to decide. The Theology Council’s general caution is legendary, and I know it well by personal experience. They have a purpose, though, and they bent to it. That was the right thing to do, to act decisively in the face of what we could well see.
Empress Jemyl I was crowned and lived an amazing Empress indeed. The Khanid King who had sinned asked to return, and instead of demanding retribution, the Empress showed mercy. The Khanid returned to us without bloodshed, delivering one of our most notorious enemies in so doing. She refrained from launching attacks into Matari territory, even warranted attacks, to prevent greater wars from erupting. She even allowed the Federation to invade and assail Kador Prime. I dare say that no leader of any nation did so much to advance causes of brotherhood that were right and just. She lived righteously as Empress. Most importantly, her decisions were those things that were whispered within the halls of our councils, debates concerning whether the inheritance of the divine in all things meant that all people should be considered members of the brotherhood and thus worthy of consideration in some sense of a larger community. Certainly that is what drove Jemyl’s friendship with the Caldari people.
In any case, before us is a great example of good living, right existence, of making good decisions that led both her life, and our lives as an Empire, toward enlightenment. Berift of that context, one could reduce her lives to a set of bullet points of deviations, a list on some piece of paper devoid of Amarrian life. Yet, in the context of the universe in which we live, observing these times, Empress Jemyl ruled wisely, justly, and was in all things good for the cluster. If one demanded nothing but to complete a checklist? Perhaps Ardishapur would have been correct. Also, his heir might now be Emperor.
One cannot live keeping schedules, or Scripture would not need to be mutable. It is alive, the Empire not quite such a solid block of granite as many outsiders assume because we tend to converse among ourselves and act in unity. A Sani Sabik acted as a champion for the Khanid ascension, was acceded, and then subsequently lost at the trials. From one place, it might have seemed strange, but if you are attempting to balance the needs of Heirs in a state of flux to determine a new Emperor, I can easily see that being the best decision possible. Would it truly be preferable to demand the newly rejoined Khanid not use his representatives simply because we ourselves found them reprehensible? Maybe that would be satisfying if, as some reasonably say, the Sani Sabik are the paramount threat. Those voices may and should grow louder. However, those are voices from only one side, the other of which maintain the Empire.
It is always easy to say, ‘this is wrong, for I know it is so and I am right’ without taking other input into account. When our favored opinions are not favored, we turn our frustration upward, never considering what other input is being received, what information we do not have. It can be difficult, as often we are so sure of what we know, even when we know that we do not know. Yet as you can see, the Empire has changed, and into something I feel is certainly better than what it was before. Catiz carries forward with policies of economic reform, but with an eye outward that sees our neighbors as not wars to invite, but also entities to barter with.
Applying right living, even to an uneven and difficult to reconcile universe, guides us through these times along the Path. I believe we move rightly, even if we are not there yet (and obviously have quite far to go). I would certainly not presume my own personal edicts would be the be-all and end-all of the Empire; mine is not the Empire’s story and my opinions do not define it. However, I am proud of how we Amarrians have lived and reacted in these times. In moments when it would have been very easy to make rash decisions where caution was warranted, to show hesitance when decisiveness was required, we turn to our brothers and sisters, to unity, and live rightly.
Without each other, what possible ends would have been achieved by our lack of temperance? What horrors might we have committed in our solitary quests for personal good bereft of the counsel of those who might disagree? Freedom is not always a cheap joy, it is a responsibility that must always weigh heavily on the shoulders of those for whom it is given. So often does the good of society hang in the balance of our decisions, affecting those in ways we could never have possibly predicted alone, ignorantly harming that which we may not even be aware of.
Given that, our right living has delivered us well in an age where our mere whim could become a bloody massacre. It must deliver us from our impulses.
2 Likes
Where have you been looking?
The universe. You’re the one making a claim to have found something.
1 Like
I am fairly surprised you found anything haven’t either. To business, then! What is God and what are you looking for?
1 Like