When do ends justify means?

[Arrendis]

You’re the one claiming to have found one. Why don’t you tell me what it is.

[James_Syagrius]

Capsuleers are a special breed; we are incomplete.

Do the ends justify the means?

Means are important, perhaps more important than the end? There is no wall of separation between means and the end. How we get, there is essential.

[Arsia_Elkin]

The back and forth between you two is interesting and I ultimately both agree and disagree with both of you on various points. I’ll try to chime in myself on just a couple points.

@Constantin_Baracca

Empress Jemyl I certainly did commit the Shathol’Syn, but violated the Sacred Flesh.

Empress Jamyl I’s return was a miracle, not a violation of the Sacred Flesh. If she was a clone, why isn’t she still around after dying again. As a clone myself, I didn’t have any extra difficulties coming back after my second death. I mean, either I didn’t or the facsimile of me didn’t have trouble, at least. Either way, it’s a pretty serious claim to make to say that Empress Jamyl violated Sacred Flesh.

I think were she actually a clone, like some believe, that it would greatly taint her rule. Especially since she brought Khanid, who actually violated Shathol’Syn and is a clone back into the fold. Were the means to the end of Jamyl’s ascension impure, it would cast an entirely different light on the actions she took as ruler. Instead of acting out of mercy and forgiveness, it would become a shady pardon of somebody who had committed the same sins. The means being pure are what makes the end pure.

@Samira_Kernher

One has to ask, “Is this God’s will, or is it the interpretation of God’s will by a flawed human? Or worse, an intentional powerplay by a deceiver?” And so the foundation of our faith becomes open to doubt, leaving us still with no way forward.

That’s always a tough question to ask, but as flawed humans ourselves asserting that we can do better than the Empress or Theology Council is somewhat absurd. Any judgment you or I make, Kernher, is also a judgment made by a flawed human. The Scriptures say to follow the Emperor, or right now, the Empress, and that all people serve one higher. Any argument about human judgment also turns back in on you too. Or me, or anyone.

Basically, if the Theology Council says one thing and Samira Kernher says another, why would I be better off trusting your flawed human judgment over theirs. On one hand, we have a designated group of people who are supposed to interpret Scripture and who are backed by the authority of the Empire, and have access to all sorts of information that neither you nor I could dream about. On the other hand we have a single reasonably intelligent capsuleer with no particular access to any sort of hidden knowledge or higher understanding herself. Why should anyone believe you over them, Commander Kernher?

[Samira_Kernher]

@Constantin_Baracca

By committing her Shathol’Syn, Empress Jemyl followed her Scriptural doctrine. She did precisely what was ‘required’, what the Scriptures literally said she should do.

She cloned. She did not commit Shathol’Syn, she cheated it, violating both it and Sacred Flesh. The events of her return are irrelevant. She was a liar, as are all those who have pushed her return as miraculous. Beware the Deceiver bearing gifts. We deserved the Elder invasion if we would so quickly throw away our principles to save ourselves.

@Constantin_Baracca

The Khanid King who had sinned asked to return, and instead of demanding retribution, the Empress showed mercy.

This is no good thing. He was struck from the Book of Records. Him and his traitor house should have been stripped of titles and his line put in chains for a thousand years, just as all of us descended from people who committed lesser crimes than he have had to face. But no, he was granted mercy. Because he is powerful, because he was needed, because he was True Amarr. That mercy spits on anyone who has been raised in slavery.

@Constantin_Baracca

Also, his heir might now be Emperor.

If only. Lord Yonis might have actually been able to save Amarr from itself.

@Constantin_Baracca

From one place, it might have seemed strange, but if you are attempting to balance the needs of Heirs in a state of flux to determine a new Emperor, I can easily see that being the best decision possible. Would it truly be preferable to demand the newly rejoined Khanid not use his representatives simply because we ourselves found them reprehensible? Maybe that would be satisfying if, as some reasonably say, the Sani Sabik are the paramount threat.

Strange? It was atrocious. Unbelievable. A disgrace to everyone involved.

The paramount threat is not simply “Sani Sabik”. It is that our lords consider our faith and principles of such low priority that they would throw them to the wind to satisfy politics or convenience. That choice should have disqualified Khanid entirely from the proceedings. Instead, Cardinal Itharem acted as if a pilot’s martial prowess was all that mattered. The faith and our principles are apparently sent to the chopping block next to practicality.

… and this is, of course, ignoring that Khanid was the first heir in the history of the Succession Trials to have been allowed to test his luck twice.

@Constantin_Baracca

Given that, our right living has delivered us well in an age where our mere whim could become a bloody massacre.

Every lord in Amarr is given power to commit bloody massacre on a whim. And many do. Idonis did, the Khanid lords are Kahah did, Aritcio did, and many others. We’ve enshrined that power in the Holder class. Because we believe they’ve proven themselves, because of their ‘blessed ancestry’, even though they’ve done nothing, and sacrificed nothing, to do so.

And I am tired of your insinuations of selfish pride or ‘personal good’. You think I say and do what I do for myself? I have given up a tremendous amount to take the path I have, and it is one I have turned to because the faith I have sworn to uphold demanded it. Because I couldn’t keep ignoring sin when it was blatant all around me, no matter how much I might have wanted to.

@Arsia_Elkin

Basically, if the Theology Council says one thing and Samira Kernher says another, why would I be better off trusting your flawed human judgment over theirs. On one hand, we have a designated group of people who are supposed to interpret Scripture and who are backed by the authority of the Empire, and have access to all sorts of information that neither you nor I could dream about. On the other hand we have a single reasonably intelligent capsuleer with no particular access to any sort of hidden knowledge or higher understanding herself. Why should anyone believe you over them, Commander Kernher?

I have no answer for that that would satisfy you, Dame Captain. If the things I have brought up are not things that make you ask questions, then I doubt there is anything I can do to convince you. In the end, I am just one person who has been forced to rethink the faith I held in light of the violations of that faith I have witnessed from those who are supposed to be the designated groups backed by the authority of the Empire. If your trust isn’t shaken by what has happened, then there is nothing I can say to change that. I do feel that, should the truth of Jamyl ever become certified, undeniable knowledge, you may find yourself in the same place I have been, asking the same questions about yourself and what you have followed as I have. But until such an event happens, until you find your last straw, you really don’t have a reason to believe me.

I don’t claim to do better. Only that I hold to what I believe, what I have been taught, and that I cannot be afraid of calling out those who betray our faith. What I ask, is that people do not take for granted what we are told to be true. Because when we do, we open the doors for evil. And that feeling, when the wool is pulled away and you see reality for what it truly is instead of what you had hoped and prayed it was, is the most awful feeling in the world. Hold people accountable to their word and deeds. Do not give them a pass when they betray their own stated principles.

[Constantin_Baracca]

@Samira_Kernher

@Constantin_Baracca

By committing her Shathol’Syn, Empress Jemyl followed her Scriptural doctrine. She did precisely what was ‘required’, what the Scriptures literally said she should do.

She cloned. She did not commit Shathol’Syn, she cheated it, violating both it and Sacred Flesh. The events of her return are irrelevant. She was a liar, as are all those who have pushed her return as miraculous. Beware the Deceiver bearing gifts. We deserved the Elder invasion if we would so quickly throw away our principles to save ourselves.

@Constantin_Baracca

The Khanid King who had sinned asked to return, and instead of demanding retribution, the Empress showed mercy.

This is no good thing. He was struck from the Book of Records. Him and his traitor house should have been stripped of titles and his line put in chains for a thousand years, just as all of us descended from people who committed lesser crimes than he have had to face. But no, he was granted mercy. Because he is powerful, because he was needed, because he was True Amarr. That mercy spits on anyone who has been raised in slavery.

@Constantin_Baracca

Also, his heir might now be Emperor.

If only. Lord Yonis might have actually been able to save Amarr from itself.

@Constantin_Baracca

From one place, it might have seemed strange, but if you are attempting to balance the needs of Heirs in a state of flux to determine a new Emperor, I can easily see that being the best decision possible. Would it truly be preferable to demand the newly rejoined Khanid not use his representatives simply because we ourselves found them reprehensible? Maybe that would be satisfying if, as some reasonably say, the Sani Sabik are the paramount threat.

Strange? It was atrocious. Unbelievable. A disgrace to everyone involved.

The paramount threat is not simply “Sani Sabik”. It is that our lords consider our faith and principles of such low priority that they would throw them to the wind to satisfy politics or convenience. That choice should have disqualified Khanid entirely from the proceedings. Instead, Cardinal Itharem acted as if a pilot’s martial prowess was all that mattered. The faith and our principles are apparently sent to the chopping block next to practicality.

… and this is, of course, ignoring that Khanid was the first heir in the history of the Succession Trials to have been allowed to test his luck twice.

@Constantin_Baracca

Given that, our right living has delivered us well in an age where our mere whim could become a bloody massacre.

Every lord in Amarr is given power to commit bloody massacre on a whim. And many do. Idonis did, the Khanid lords are Kahah did, Aritcio did, and many others. We’ve enshrined that power in the Holder class. Because we believe they’ve proven themselves, because of their ‘blessed ancestry’, even though they’ve done nothing, and sacrificed nothing, to do so.

And I am tired of your insinuations of selfish pride or ‘personal good’. You think I say and do what I do for myself? I have given up a tremendous amount to take the path I have, and it is one I have turned to because the faith I have sworn to uphold demanded it. Because I couldn’t keep ignoring sin when it was blatant all around me, no matter how much I might have wanted to.

Let’s do an exercise. Before we continue, Samira, I want to you read from the top your response to me. I want you to compose the precise response you think I would give you. Not the one you want, but the one you think you will get. In the meantime, I will compose my own. We can send our response to a common party, perhaps Arsia Elkin, via other means, if she doesn’t mind being part of this exercise. That way, she has both responses.

I think this will be instructive to the crux of the matter. Would you both please accept?

[Aria_Jenneth]

So … my own answer to this probably wouldn’t be very satisfying to anyone, but … a thought.

It seems like there are some questions that power tends to distort, places where there are dynamics and patterns it is hard for the strong to see clearly.

It feels like this question comes down right in the center of that zone.

Power begs to be used, even if only a fool would listen.

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Constantin_Baracca

We can send our response to a common party, perhaps Arsia Elkin, via other means, if she doesn’t mind being part of this exercise.

That’s interesting. I consent to participate.

[Samira_Kernher]

Fine, if Dame Arsia is. But I won’t be able to prepare anything tonight.

[Constantin_Baracca]

Oh, I don’t think either of us is going to disappear over the next few nights. Take your time!

Thank you so much, Lady Elkin, for participating! I shall prepare my response as soon as I am able!

[Jason_Galente]

Wow, I can’t read all this.

[Arsia_Elkin]

Sure you could. It’s an important topic. Try.

[Arrendis]

Nope, it’s behind a gate, and he’s not allowed.

[Auriga_Menkalinan]

We could and it is an important topic but no.

The probable return does not justify the time investment.

Try being succinct while making a nuanced point. Arrendis (among others) manages it.

[Arrendis]

But they’re not making ‘a’ point, they’re having a discussion. Discussions take longer, cover more ground. And following them, rather than just skipping to the end and looking for ‘conclusions’ leads you down a much richer road of thought, spurs ideas of your own, and even invites you in to join the discussion.

[Auriga_Menkalinan]

I’m not looking for conclusions. We all know that the original question is not intended to have one. For discussion to be meaningful it has to include the making of points. I am sure many interesting points are made above. Sadly they are buried by verbiage.

Damn, now you’ve sucked me in!

[Samira_Kernher]

You should never get involved in academia then, where entire books are written as rebuttals.

[Cain_Aloga]

I feel as if many of us are invested, or at least interested to the responses. Would the parties involved be willing to share them once this exercise is done?

[Arrendis]

I already have copies of the missives each of them will later submit. I will offer viewings for only 2b ISK per person.

[Hun_Tra]

Gimme your viewings and I’ll double 'em.

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Cain_Aloga

Would the parties involved be willing to share them once this exercise is done?

I believe the idea is that I share both replies after receiving them for us to compare. As of now I’ve received a reply from Mr. Baracca and so am just waiting for Ms. Kernher’s.