Where are the heroes?

[Destiny_Corrupted]

I’ve recently started to once again dip my toes into the lukewarm, detritus-colored waters of high-sec war declarations. Not being able to do aggressive wars due to having no ability to defend a war HQ from blobbers who join wars as allies for free just for the extra content, I decided to try doing that exact thing myself, since the barrier to entry is so much lower.

I started browsing the active wars list, looking for those being conducted by smaller entities and/or those who don’t engage in wars as a primary activity (obviously I’m not going to ally against a group like BLACKFLAG., because what would I do against them by my lonely self?), and started sending out mails offering to ally for no charge.

It was eye-popping just how bad things have gotten, but one particular exchange was absolutely heartbreaking for me (redacted bits to protect the privacy of the victim):

How could someone be so cruel? I had to help. I sent instructions to accept the war ally request. Unfortunately, I received no response. Desperately trying to salvage the situation (and a fellow player), I resorted to my ultimate weapon of persuasion, being cute :

Unfortunately, it was too late. This player/CEO, and all of their corporation members, collectively left the game to play something where justice could actually be had for the meek and downtrodden: League of Legends.

And now I’m here, asking: “where are our heroes?” The anti-griefing movement, so often self-referenced as a bulwark of strength and stout pillar against EVE’s belligerent undesirables, is nowhere to be seen where it matters most. Are they too busy saving cattle-like AFK haulers who, upon arriving to a station, would actually be none the wiser as to how and why they got there, whether it be by virtue of the autopilot completing its course, or the molten slag from a ganker’s neutron blasters? Or are they simply preoccupied with more pressing…Ventures?

Surely it can’t fall on me to carry the fight against the vile griefers? My angel’s wings have been torn off decades ago, and the stumps cauterized with such Godly fury, that it would’ve actually been redacted from the Old Testament. Also, as a dirtbag griefer, I have no PvP skills and have literally never been in a fight against another ship that was actually armed. How am I supposed to help these people?

So where are they? Where are our white knights in shining armor, ready to raise their banners of justice and charge into battle on behalf of the players who need them most? How long will their lances, having been strung up on the walls like decorative trinkets, continue to gather dust, instead of once again tasting flesh and blood in righteous combat against New Eden’s vile sinners?

[Shipwreck_Jones]

ISD, please don’t close. I know some might think OP is trolling, and they very well might be, but I think there is merit to the discussion that could flow from this.

[Gix_Firebrand]

I wonder if we push, if we could get the war decs changed back to how they used to be.

It would change the dynamic of the game in terms of high sec. I think it would change things almost overnight.

[Shipwreck_Jones]

Well, I’m of the opinion that fighting for people who won’t fight for themselves is a waste of time. Well, if you can get paid, grow as a player, and/or have fun, then that’s fine. But it isn’t helping those guys. They need to be inspired to never play the victim, be resilient in the face of adversity, and to bounce back from losses. They need to be taught how to fight back, and how to manage risk.

Personally, I wouldn’t bother wasting my time for anyone who won’t fight for themselves. But, fighting alongside the guys who try to fight back might be a worthwhile endeavor.

Hm, I think I’m turning into Kreia.

[God_Emperor_Kane]

3 war limit at lower cost, no war hq. The big wardec alliances like RIOT and BF and so on would break apart and you would see 3-5 gang corps again declaring wars where they will have content or make is from, and also fighting against each other more since it is cheaper and the risk of having an 20 man fleet pop you is also lower.

I mean even I would go out on my own again.

I actually think 3 wars limit with no warHQ with no war immunity will already split up all the wardeccers.

Or keep the warhq but take away war immunity with a 3 war limit. @CCP_Paragon Do this… This way the warhq adds a barrier for entry, and also a price for defenders as it will be alot easier for them to destroy a 5 man corp wardeccer structure vs one that can deploy a 100 man fleet.

[Dracvlad]

This is exactly what I think, but ask him to enable RR so allies can rep each other, or better still change RR to what it was previously.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Shipwreck Jones

ISD, please don’t close. I know some might think OP is trolling, and they very well might be, but I think there is merit to the discussion that could flow from this.

Dude, come on, why would you jinx my thread like that? It’s bad enough we’re probably going to get people coming in here saying that they “didn’t read anything” because everyone here is “blocked” but they’ll “definitely be following this discussion to see where it goes because they have a feeling they know whose alt I am.” Of all people I wouldn’t have expected you to fuel that fire. You realize that like a fifth of all my posts on these forums already get hidden and deleted right?

Besides, unlike some people, all of my actions are easily verifiable in-game. I’ve sent literally dozens of ally offers (mostly verbally, since very few toggle that option by themselves) and only two have been accepted so far.

[God_Emperor_Kane]

i am ok with RR as it is. because they can also then bring overwhelming logi to help. Keep it in corp otherwise you have that mega cancer logi balls of the past.

if I was on my own, 1 t1 griffin noob player would make my two guardians useless.

[Dracvlad]

It was the killer in terms of getting people to help each other. It was hard enough with people going suspect… It is an important factor in terms of why no one allies.

If CCP can find a method to enable allies repping then that will help.

The three wars without war HQ and open on anyone was what I was suggesting.

[Jumpdrive]

Nothing is lost here and nothing positive can be gained from loosening up the war-dec rules either.

The showcased corp had no business holding a structure they wouldn’t defend. Good riddance.
And if you, as an attacker, cannot defend only ONE measly structure (war HQ), then you cannot destroy a structure that is held by a group that CAN defend. It’s just a waste of everybody’s time at that point.

Clowning around with different wardecs rules will only result in a little more busy work. At best, you’d get players in NPC corps who just temporarily switch to war corps to defend armor and structure timers.
Pretty similar to what we already see now in larger high sec groups, creating different holding corps for their structures, a PvE corp and sleeping war corps that they pile into when there’s a war declared.

Reason why you cannot improve wardecs: players can always organize in groups using communication tools OUTSIDE of the game (their own websites or places like Discord). CCP can never cut their comms. The game corporations do not mean much and are mostly a UI convenience within high sec.

Players can freely change corps and most PvE activities don’t incur NPC corp tax anyway. Miners don’t pay it. Explorers, traders, haulers and abyssal runners all do not care. Even mission runners can simply pay the tax and it still won’t affect the LPs they make.
Good for Discord and Mumble.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Jumpdrive

And if you, as an attacker, cannot defend only ONE measly structure (war HQ), then you cannot destroy a structure that is held by a group that CAN defend. It’s just a waste of everybody’s time at that point.

It doesn’t have to be about defending structures. Without needing a structure to act as the war HQ (thereby forcing defensive structure fights), an outnumbered group can use asymmetric warfare to inflict losses on a much stronger entity, which might not break it, but could certainly accomplish tactical and strategic objectives.

Also, whining about war HQs isn’t the point of this thread. That’s a topic I’ll make some other day, in the forum section in which it actually belongs. The point I was trying to make here is that anti-griefers aren’t anti-griefing in a way that would confer the most benefit to those EVE players who genuinely need help the most (hint: it’s not the ones auto-piloting through Uedama in high-end incursion-fit Marauders).

Speaking of which, another corporation just got back to me:

[Same_Old_Topics]

Does EvE really cultivate a “heroic” playstyle?
It very evidently cultivates a “break peoples stuff” playstyle, I think they might tattoo that on new employees when they get hired.

And yes, I know this is a tongue in cheek callout of the AG community, and the evidence here is pretty damning. You’d think the first thing AG would focus on would be education on how to avoid such. (EVEUni seemed to have that goal.)

All to say that the AG team seems to have chosen the hill they wish to fight on, and as contemptible as you might think it… They’re allowed.

[Dracvlad]

Anti-Gankers are not anti war deccers. And I have not yet read the OP’s post, 1st March is when that will happen, if it is still relevant, but bait posts are what Destiny does and very well too. The only reason I participated in this was because Kane who I really respect put forward what I was suggesting would be the way to do wars right from the start.

The RR issue however is a killer…

[Jumpdrive]

@Destiny Corrupted

Without needing a structure to act as the war HQ (thereby forcing defensive structure fights), an outnumbered group can use asymmetric warfare to inflict losses on a much stronger entity, which might not break it, but could certainly accomplish tactical and strategic objectives.

Such as what?
There’s a structure in a wardecced holding corp and at the time the armor timer ticks down there’s one concentrated defensive force formed near it for a little while. Then you have a whole bunch who are just doing their day to day stuff in a non-war-eligible corp that you can at best suicide gank (same as always).

Maybe I lack imagination here, but I cannot see what being heavily outnumbered as the attacker can achieve in this case.

[Same_Old_Topics]

And james only bumps/ganks those he chooses.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Same'Old'Topics

Does EvE really cultivate a “heroic” playstyle?
It very evidently cultivates a “break peoples stuff” playstyle, I think they might tattoo that on new employees when they get hired.

And yes, I know this is a tongue in cheek callout of the AG community, and the evidence here is pretty damning. You’d think the first thing AG would focus on would be education on how to avoid such. (EVEUni seemed to have that goal.)

All to say that the AG team seems to have chosen the hill they wish to fight on, and as contemptible as you might think it… They’re allowed.

Being an anti-griefer isn’t exclusive to sitting in Uedama and plinking away at Catalysts in a sniper Cormorant before they’re destroyed by CONCORD.

If every “AG” and/or member of the channel donated like five million ISK, it would be possible to hire a high-end mercenary group and not just save a single entity from a war, but actually suppress a wardec group from operating entirely for a period of time, in effect saving multiple entities from wars.

But I guess the average anti-griefer is more concerned with farming cop-out kill board stats and leeching off of free intel.

@Jumpdrive

Maybe I lack imagination here, but I cannot see what being heavily outnumbered as the attacker can achieve in this case.

You’re still framing wars in terms of fights over Upwell structures. Imagine how the system would work if Upwell structures didn’t exist to get a better understanding of what I meant.

@Dracvlad

And I have not yet read the OP’s post, 1st March is when that will happen, if it is still relevant, but bait posts are what Destiny does and very well too.

@Shipwreck_Jones See? Told ya. No one’s even asked him, and he’s doing exactly what I told you he would do. He’s salty that I challenged and embarrassed him in front of everyone, and will now try to get this thread shut down through backseat-mod bait.

Imagine having so little self-respect and integrity that you’d post in someone’s thread just to tell everyone you didn’t read it?

[Same_Old_Topics]

@Dracvlad

The only reason I participated in this was because Kane who I really respect put forward what I was suggesting would be the way to do wars right from the start.

So what am i? Pulled pork?!

[Same_Old_Topics]

@Destiny Corrupted

Being an anti-griefer isn’t exclusive to sitting in Uedama and plinking away at Catalysts in a sniper Cormorant before they’re destroyed by CONCORD.

I laughed.

[Dracvlad]

@Same'Old'Topics

So what am i? Pulled pork?!

I have no idea who you are? But I know who Kane is.

[Ricky_Tock]

@Dracvlad

Anti-Gankers are not anti war deccers.

Good. That means you can stay well and far away from this. Go now. Shoo. Your stinky opinion is not wanted. Go back to saving half-asleep doppelgangers of yourself (or lying about it).

@Destiny_Corrupted no promises on quantity of activity, but I would enjoy helping this cause in some way. I will message you in game later this day.

Seems like a grand and righteous way to get into some highsec PvP.