This isn’t rocket science, if someone builds a ship for pve it’s going to suck at pvp. Why would they engage you when that isn’t why they went there in the first place? EvE players aren’t risk adverse, they’re just trying to get done what they want to get done as efficiently as they can. Anyone who wants to blow you to kingdom come will try. I bet you haven’t gone to Tama and tried to solo everyone there? Why? Because you’d die. If you want to know why people are risk adverse just look into a mirror because if you really want any kind of pvp you’d very easily find it.
6 Likes
Maybe but what does requiring a scram to finish the mission look like?
When it comes to faction warfare, maybe we should just replace missions with hunting diamond rats. They have the ai to warp off so warp disruption makes sense and you find them by roaming systems and using d-scan.
1 Like
What new missions? If you mean burners, they still don’t behave like capsuleer ships. You can’t neut them out and they seem immune to tracking disruption and damps.
Forward bases are fleet level/structure bash mechanics, warp disruption is pointless. Roaming and mining npc’s might be the closest approximation but they aren’t worth your time.
Abyss is abyss…
Neuts don’t do anything. Nos are free capacitor from npc’s though, it’s just that nos is not widely useful in pvp unless you’re using a bonused ship.
The trouble is, eve pvp is balanced as rock paper scissors. Most small gang/solo fights are decided before they start or in the first few seconds when a brawler tries to scram down a kiter or a alpha strike makes a good hit. After that the fight lasts mere seconds.
If pve was this all-or-nothing and that brief it wouldn’t be very fun. The pve formula for many games is many low dps-high tank enemies. It draws out the engagement and its easier to control how long and how hard an encounter should be.
5 Likes
Maybe just maybe those playing PvE want to do just that. I like PvP from time to time, I just don’t want to be forced into it. My frustration is that when you shoot back at attackers more often than not, they run. I guess not all PvP players like getting shot back at. More often than not I like PvE. SItes, missions, epic arc, story lines, mining, maybe even some WH exploration. Whats wrong with that?
By design, the PvP player cannot be forced into PvE. Quite the opposite for the PvE player. All the PvP player has to do is show up. PvE player chosen activity ends immediately either by PvP attack or by evading the attack. Add to that if the PvE player does engage, they do so in a ship fitted for PvE likely putting them at a disadvantage.
5 Likes
They’re not actually EVE players in the classic sense.
They’re FARMERS!
FARMERS are risk averse.
You know who hates social interaction?
FARMERS!
You know who else belongs into the group of farmers,
who are risk averse?
RMTers!
You know why CCP wants more farmers and actively kills the game by attracting more of them?
Because they’re simple minded, which means they’re easy money!
1 Like
I think this really nails it. Sometimes my plan that day when I log in doesn’t involve PVP. If I see someone wanting to engage I’ll warp off because I’m not interested in the fight. I’m not being risk adverse, I’m being goal oriented.
And as Elena said in her post, losing a ship can set me back 20 minutes with the traveling involved in replacing the loss. For someone who only gets an hour to play every few days it’s someone I’m definitely trying to avoid.
3 Likes
The overall playerbase has changed over time. There are less and less people who embrace the harsh cold brutal nature of what EVE Online used to be, and there are more krabs and AFK miners in the game. Then, as more krabs and miners come into the game, they crowd out those who want to participate in PVP, and start shouting at CCP to make their game even safer.
2 Likes
Pretty simple. Nobody wants to lose. Hard to blame a person for that. The onus is on you as a hunter to not let them get away. How often do you take risky fights? I personally always go for them. How often do you take almost guaranteed losses? I personally will never do that.
4 Likes
That theory is disproven by the fact that there are people who don’t give a ■■■■ about losing because they’re not insecure wannabes who need to “win” to feel like they’ve accomplished something.
I like losing. It’s the best way to learn something. My ego isn’t fragile. Anyone who always wants to avoid losing is an actual loser already. One has to have some serious issues if his self worth is dependent on “winning” and “hoarding assets/money”.
3 Likes
This is often repeated, but I believe it’s an oversimplification and also easily proven incorrect. If player X (solo) engages a group of 10 players with his rifter, odds are there will be little lesson in repeating this bad idea.
Learning results from combinations of novelty of situation, challenge, and critical analysis (win or lose). Losing correlates with learning because it also correlates with the new and difficult.
It follows that fear of losing restricts learning in general, but it’s very situational. Sometimes fear is the correct, learned response.
3 Likes
Sorry but you’re both working under a mistaken assumption here.
EVE is not and never has been “a PVP game”. Overwatch is a PvP game. World of Tanks is a PvP game. MechWarrior Online is a PvP game. MOBAs and shooters are PvP games. Survivor games are a PvE/PvP mix like EVE, but generally have a stronger PvP focus than EVE.
EVE is a mostly-PvE MMO, in which PvP-almost-anywhere is a feature that is used to drive advertising, motivate people to PvE more and longer, drive the economy, and attract a certain sector of the gaming population who want to ‘compete harder’ and are willing to pay cash for an arena in which they can pretend they are doing so.
The vast majority of activity in EVE has always been PvE. CCPs’ own statistics show that less than 15% of players typically engage in PvP. Missions, trading, mining and ratting make up the vast majority of activity in EVE, and always have.
The problem has simply become more evident because CCP is unable to comprehend what this implies for their game, unable to address the issue properly, and we have all these easily-misled players on board who think the game is one thing when it is actually another. Because of this mismatch, farmers and botters are accumulating, and PvPers are leaving for games that actually feature accessible PvP.
You can’t fix a game based on X when your design goal is Y but what you are actually selling to people is a myth based on Z.
6 Likes
When you’re limiting your understanding of PvP to that what you think it means in “pop culture” instead of taking it as what it actually means: Player vs. Player, which EVE is in every single aspect, directly or just indirectly … then yes, you’d say it’s not a PvP game and I’d agree with you.
It is a PvP game. I’m using PvP as what it means, you on the other hand narrow it down to “player combat”. EVE is a PvP game because it has an actually working economy, which is PvP by default. As long as you do anything that can in some way cause direct or indirect interaction with other players, which the majority of activities you can do in EVE actually do, then - again - it is by default PvP.
Maybe you’ll actually manage to think this through.
To expand on this:
It’s PvP when you go to the supermarket in real life. When you manage to grab the last piece of something and the next guy doesn’t get it, then that’s PvP. Real life has a lot of PvP actually. Like when you wait at a ticket service to buy a ticket for a band, and start waiting a day early, with a tent, then you’re doing PvP. You try to beat everyone else to make sure you get a ticket.
Or when win95 got released. That was PvP. People literally rallied to make sure to get a copy. Absolutely nuts, but it’s a PvP activity. It’d just be Person vs Person, instead of Player vs. Player.
2 Likes
Nah, you’re just ‘broadening’ your definition of PvP so you can pretend your previous post was meaningful, and to have something to disagree about. Because apparently you think ‘forum PvP’ is a thing and there are points to be won.
Using your own definition, EVE is still completely PvP. Farming is PvP. Logging in is PvP because, hey if the servers start to go wonky, you got in and somebody else didn’t!
“EVE has a functioning economy” is also useless, since pretty much every MMO I’ve ever played has one - the players farm drops, camp bosses, craft, trade, buy items on the store to sell for currency etc. etc. EVE is only somewhat different from this in that more of the items are player made, and comparatively less from drops. But that doesn’t make it the only ‘functioning game economy’ out there.
When people complain “where has the PvP gone?” they are specifically referring to Player-Player combat. The OP is specifically referring to that. Your own response here is meaningless, useless, and disproves your own point “they’re farmers not PvPers” because you define farming as PvP in EVE.
Maybe you’ll actually manage to think that through.
5 Likes
@OP
PVE Players are risk-adverse because in eve, pve fits are very weak to pvp. PVP fights last a very small moment compared to what pve lasts, so PVE fits need to run long-term while PVP fits need to run short-term.
So when you do PVE you always are at a disadvantage.
No. The main difference is that losing a fight destroys your ship, and you need to buy it again. Your whole fit/implants are consumable. Everything is consumable, even the bpos can be destroyed by a SB when moving them in HS. In most MMOs you don’t lose stuff when you die. Sometimes you need to repair, sometimes you lose stats for a moment (death debuff), but you don’t have to farm your ■■■■ again.
That’s called “permadeath”, “hardcore”, “onelife mode” in other game.
The other difference is that unrequested player fights can happen anywhere, anywhen as soon as you are undocked. This is called “pvp mode” in other games, and this typically happen on a dedicated server. THIS is the reason why Eve is called “pvp game”, because the mechanisms it proposes are usually only found in “pvp server” for other games.
Those are competitive pvp game. Eve is an unfair pvp game.
neuts seem to increase the activation delay of guns and reps. Not sure about it though.
However nos don’t work everytime. I just tried it against the burner ashimu and it just does nothing( no cap gained). I think some other rats are completely immun to neut. (IIRC base guristas are also immun)
2 Likes
It is though. You just don’t understand what PvP means.
This is 100% true. Your ship is fit for a roll and most people will MIN/MAX for that roll and thus, if you are caught-out then and faced with the very real likelihood of losing a ship, why would you stay? You wouldn’t do that IRL (ie real warfare) so why would you do that here?
MIN/MAX’ing ruins games IMO…
1 Like
“min max” does not fit in here. Just say “optimization” please.
Or you can call those people “hardcore carebears” if you want.
In 2011 two very PvP focussed players in my corp decided to do some PvE in drakes together, they were chatting away in chat and suddenly one said there is someone here with us. They had got a bit carried away with the discussion. So in comes a gang…, both had high SP, but no point to hold the person they were shooting, the people who had tackled them warped out and back in and the enemy shifted points.
I was too far away to help, both lost their ship. Both were very good FC’s. And this is why if you are fit for PvE you have no chance. The correct decision is always to warp out get in a PvP ship and come back.
I totally agree.
1 Like
If you are PvE then you fit your ship as per MIN/MAX ideals…far more than just optimization.
1 Like
This is why I think pve sites in low/null would be better if you could run them in pvp ship’s, they would then generate more content and the guys running them wouldn’t feel so valuable.
But this rely’s on CCP to change pve sites which might takes a few years to do :/.
If you look at ded’s for reference you have to fit a t3C with massive tank and spend 2-3 hours taking out the site (8/10 / 10/10), how much better would it be if you could finish the site in 40min solo in an omen navy would be much more fun.
More people would run the site’s more people would be solo pvping and finding fights more often in general.
3 Likes