Why are there no Incentives to PvP in EVE?

[Elena_Laskova]

IMO it would help to consider the different kinds of combat PvP, and make it more practical to find “fun” combat PvP in the relevant types.

For example a lot of people view one-sided combat PvP done for profit as the most important kind, and will happily sabotage every other kind to get more targets (unwilling targets if necessary).

Ganking is natural for EVE, but it’s just a niche - the only problem with it is that blindly defending it EVE-style (e.g. by blowing up Topics in the forum) affects other kinds of PvP.

Then there’s “not-quite-combat” PvP for strategic control, by deploying locally overwhelming force to make combat less likely.

And the extremely rare but PR-friendly large-scale combat for ownership or other strategic objectives.

Others (probably OP too) are interested in PvP for fun, and want something the “sandbox” isn’t offering enough of right now: reasonably balanced fights. These aren’t entirely rational in EVE, and there are surprisingly many combat-related Topics and posts pointing out it’s hard to find interesting combat opportunities. But there’s a demand, so there must be a way to make it more widely available.

EVE isn’t really a PvP game at all, despite the bold claims. It’s an income-driven sandbox with (more or less) free-fire combat. In that context the it’s clear the “natural” forms of combat PvP are ganking for ISK, taking high-income territory, and defending high-income territory.

In all of those cases, one or both sides are (and should be) working hard to make sure they’re not fair fights.

So if EVE wants “PvP for fun” to be readily available it needs a re-think. It’s certainly possible. IMO it could be done without negatively influencing “PvP farming for ISK” or strategic PvP. But it wouldn’t be trivial to facilitate both in the same places.

It’s time for the bittervets to stop hating on the idea of (moderately) balanced PvP, and start helping to work out a way to integrate it into EVE.
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A PS just for Natocha: I quite like your VCU idea, and something like that might help with “PvP for fun” and/or new player retention - but I think it’s too radical/too soon. As far as I know EVE sec-levels haven’t changed significantly since EVE’s early days. I think they’re long overdue for change, but this isn’t a place that’s friendly and accepting towards major changes

[Sepheir_Sepheron]

I commend you for your original content. In all the years I’ve played this game or any game really I have never once heard someone complaining that it was too balanced.

[Solstice_Projekt]

People who use the word “incentive” are unaware that what they’re talking about is baiting.

When you need to bait people into doing things, then they don’t actually want to do these things and they will keep demanding more bait, because they came for the bait and not the game!

Stop treating people like mindless animals!

[Elena_Laskova]

Solstice

You’re not 100% wrong, and I’m not a believer in “paying people to do PvP combat” either - but I suspect you’re mostly over-reacting to terminology from other MMOs.

It’s 100% clear from this Topic that there are other players who share enough of OP’s vision to make the Topic interesting. Why not go for a rational argument against incentives, but in favor of making “PvP for fun” more readily available in EVE?

FWIW I think PvP ships should have insignificant costs, but the very large differences in income and wealth in EVE make this a problem - a rich enough player can afford to throw away hundreds of times as much per loss as an averagely ISK-rich player, and it would make a difference in balanced PvP.

But IMO that’s a problem for another day - it would be radical enough to get a discussion about more balanced combat going.

[Jint_Hikaru]

@Omnathious_Deninard

While thinking on this topic, I have to agree that for the most part the PVP is the incentive to PVP however, a slight ISK gain for PVP could become an interesting dynamic.

The process that I came up with would be something like this.
The pilots that destroy a ship receive a payout equal to the cost of basic insurance distributed to each pilot based on the percentage of damage each pilot did.

Maybe i didnt read whole thread, but where is this ISK coming from that you get for blowing up a players ship? I mean from a game lore standpoint. You already get what modules and cargo wasn’t damaged by the battle (this makes sense)… are you proposing some kind of anti-concord who just hand out ISK to anyone who pew-pews another players ship?

[Omnathious_Deninard]

@Jint_Hikaru

Maybe i didnt read whole thread

My idea is on topic, completely different from the OP.

@Jint_Hikaru

Where is this ISK coming from that you get for blowing up a players ship? Are you proposing some kind of anti-concord who just hand out ISK to anyone who pew-pews another players ship?

More or less, yes. It could be concord who hands out the ISK payment, it could be the insurance company, I will be honest in saying that I didn’t think the lore part of the idea through this time.

[Kaylee_Rayl]

@Commander_Kane

The problem though many of the PVP fights tends to take place between those that want to and those that do not. Most players have no interest in EVE other than PVE and Industry and will reluctantly try PVP if forced to. I also strongly believe your first (and mine) for PVP should not dictate game changes that forces others into PVP.

You are correct though, there really is no incentive for people that prefer PVE and Industry to PVP. But that is ok. It creates a weird balance in eve where those that want PVP will always be able to find it no matter the outcome.

I strongly disagree.

There are plenty of incentives to Pvp, but most people want the rip big rewards at the beginning of their career or the first few ops. I am pretty sure, if OP suggestion were to be implemented, it would be abused by experienced pvpers, and subsequently the new or the unexperienced would still be threading for even more Pvp incentives.

PVP is not really ‘forced’, but strongly encouraged. If you happen to fly into gankers or wardeccers, just pay the ransom (if you aim to ‘avoid’ pvp), or deal with it and move on.

Without PVP the industry/PVE side withers and stagnates to a constant where no one will even find the ‘incentive’ to log-on anymore. Many (including perhaps the Sub via Plex system) motives are already put in place, but most fail to understand. Broadly outlined here:

1. An industrial should have a grander vision of feeding the many needs of competing alliances (production of capitals, etc). The constant battles (Pvp) in nul/low implies a fluctuating demand to the market and industrials who greatly rely on this for profit. And this here is an 1 incentive / gratification.

2. A Pve’er acquiring LP will buy capital bpcs and implants, (etc.) which can be sold to the Industrials, who then supply the Pvp market. Another 1 incentive enjoying Pvp w/o the need for more ‘tokens’.

3. The leader of a nullsec Industrial Corporation, knows that more region expansion, equals more return and better resources, and more potentials at the end of the day. Again, another 1 incentive to contribute to join in Pvp fleets.

Now. I understand the rhetoric of newbros/OP, but I’d recommend getting a broader experience first and see where you stand then.

As for Pve’er/Industrials only want to focus on their thing, yet expecting that CCP implements a special ‘token’ of gratification for when they’d Pvp - there are enough motivating arguments in this sandbox to get your motor rolling. And if that is not enough, remember that Pvpers can easily (an actually do) have Industrial alts (just a matter of skilling a toon overnight with SP injection), place it in jita, elsewhere, etc But can Industrials instantly deal with the Pvp and defend their region/corp overnight? In this thought, I’d encourage pve/indy and actually everybody else to learn and join the fight.

However, for those of you who would still feel oppressed (because you automatically consent to Pvp as you undock) and yet love the game, I’d suggest you find a C1-C2 Wh corp to settle in (they’re relatively less contested than any other sec), or that you stay docked and market all day long.

[Cartheron_Crust]

“Conan, what is best in life?!”

[Lugh_Crow-Slave]

wait… there is incentive to do anything other than pvp in eve?

[Kaylee_Rayl]

n1

[JUSTIFIED_ARROGANCE]

1. Gimmicks are horrible and rarely used by EVE players because we just dont care. Activity tracker (i had to stop and find it since i didnt even remember what that piece of garbage was called), was a waste of EVE developer time.

2. As to pvp incentives, ‘profit ganking’ can make you very rich, it is just that you are focusing on pvp that doesnt pay well or even enough if ISK is a concern.

3. The one area that needs some sort of incentive is for nullsec entities to fight or perish. The problem is coming up with a solution, some have mentioned dwindling local resources or resources that bounce around the game so that you would covet your neighbors resource pile (because you would have none).

Ultimately though nullsec just keeps finding ways to avoid pvp since it isnt profitable. They get into a few decent sized engagements but the losses amount to near nothing compared to their income levels.

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Evie_Boirelle

I have a few solutions I think could fix this issue. I wanted to get you guys input on it.

1. PvP craftable gear

How about this, every time a player is killed in PvP, in their cargo there is a small chance that a (new) craftable item could appear. This item could be crafted into PvP gear, which would be like faction gear, but better. This would be essentially the best gear in the game. The industrialists could learn the blueprints for crafting it as well, so everybody wins.

2. In game RECOGNIZABLE achievements for certain Killboard accomplishments

Right now the only way to tell if someone is decent at PvP is to go to zkillboard and check. Why not have special titles before a players name or an award on their portrait or something so we can tell them apart from everyone else? Or how about a special tattoo they can put on their face in their portrait. Just anything to let others know you’re a PvPer and that you are actually decent at it. I mean you could do it any number of ways. For instance, player #1 has a 4:1 kill/death ratio. That’s pretty good, but I’d never know it unless I looked it up. There should be something recognizable, in game, to where I can see it and give him the recognition or at least the respect he deserves. It doesn’t have to be just K:D ratio. You could do it for kill count. Every 1000 kills give them an achievement/reward.

I had some other ideas too but honestly these are the best two. I think with changes and more incentives a lot of high sec only players would be willing to come and play in PvP as well. It would be a great thing for the game. Let me know you guys thoughts!

I think number 1 is going to create a new industry of people suiciding their most efficient cheap hulls to their friends in order to create a lot of these ‘PvP craftable gear’ and flood the market with it, completely undermining the EVE industry of other gear in the same slots. Sorry, it’s a bad idea.

Number 2 is a better idea, but it’s also an idea that is already in the game in the form of killmarks on your ship and having a recognisable face that makes people dock up when they see it in local. If you kill enough people in an area in space, people will start to recognise you as not the regular kind of neutral threat, but a real threat.
Once we start rewarding people for having a certain killcount, people will again just throw a lot of cheap hulls at their friend until they get the rewards they want. It’s not going to work, people will just abuse it.

For me the reason to PvP is to make other ships explode and to make sure the ships of my friends don’t explode.