Why does anyone mine?

(Vallek Warlock) #41

imo there is the cost of fitting, the cost of the ship and the loss of cargo/time. We are lucky the asteroids respawn everyday. Imagine if we had to wait like 1 week or so. It would be a bloodbath. There was going to be corps war for sector control and the prices would skyrocket.

The war machine can only keep spinning bc there are people mining and manufacturing. Doesn’t matter why you do it. If it’s to relax, for profit or bc you hate rocks. There are always someone to do it and someone who need it. Supply and demand. The basic of economy.

And btw

Listening to music, making isk (1% profit is still profit) and enjoying the peace. That’s why I do it

(Max Deveron) #42

if you scroll up further you will see i originally said “outside of initial investment to do so”

But then of course we have Alpha acc’s, and corvettes, and your first free venture to go mining with…

The question still remains,

How are minerals not Free?

(Cassandra Masami) #43

Minerals are not free because my labor is not free.

Beyond the initial investment or the need to replace anything destroyed, mining crystals and the mining boost ammunition are the only consumables expended during the mining process. And using those are optional, so mining has very low or zero material costs that accumulate the more you mine.

But I put value on my time and prefer not to work for free. Other miners I’ve worked with don’t like working without some sort of compensation. So the labor put into the mining process imparts a cost onto the minerals.

(darkestkhan Eriker) #44

If minerals are free as you say you can give them all to me.

Honestly though - opportunity cost is there. If you can get 2x isk ratting instead of mining then you are losing a lot. If you sell your minerals at 70% of market price then you are losing isk. If you sell your manufacture at 70% of input costs then once again you end up losing isk.

You can say 10% of loss while doing what you enjoy is not a problem - and I would agree. But you won;'t tell me that getting 30% or more loss is not a problem.

Minerals are free as long as you need only very little of them.

(Max Deveron) #45

This has nothing to do with making ISK

So no your misguidance in opportunity cost has no place here.

I am not talking about selling minerals, I am not talking about manufacturing…

I am only talking about acquiring minerals…

So how are they not free?

(Max Deveron) #46

We are not talking about you getting paid…

Only the acquisition of minerals…

How are acquiring minerals not Free?

(Max Deveron) #47

Now, remember folks…
My question has nothing to do with anything but getting the minerals yourself…

In getting them yourself…

How are gathering minerals not free?

(Corwin Dnari) #48

Ever heard the expression “time is money”? Your time has a value. The cost of your minerals is the value of the time you spend getting them. If you value your time at zero isk, then the minerals are free. Assuming you don’t get ganked.

(Cassandra Masami) #49

I actually already answered this:

As an independent miner if you choose to not use mining crystals or mining boosters, you have no costs. In which case mining is “free.”

I put the word “free” in quotes because I don’t like using that word in this context. To me the word “free” implies that those minerals were received with no cost or effort by the recipient. In this scenario there is no cost, but there is effort and time spent to turn those space rocks into inventory.

(Abyss Azizora) #50

I mine because I do so while at work, because it’s AFK’able, and because my time mining is literally free at work seeing as the time is already paid for with real world currency. I like being paid twice for the same time. If there was another activity that was afk’able as mining that paid more, I would never mine in eve, as it’s piss-poor income and utterly pointless due to bot armies doing it en’mass.

(Octoven) #51

This philosophy is what is the cancer of manufacturing and selling, the notion that “I mined it myself so all my profit margin is 100% pure profit no matter what I sell it for past the initial expenses”. Let’s say to build a ship cost 78 mil in materials. You mine that much and you sell the ship for 75 mil, you mined the materials yourself so you turned a 75 mil ISK profit right? WRONG You not only didn’t make profit, you actually lost 3 mil. If you had sold your materials instead you would have got 78 mil for them and because you are selling raw materials and not a product based on raw materials, ie doesn’t take any cost to build, you have effectively made 78 mil profit. The moment you decide to use those materials for a finished product you have incurred a build cost of 78 mil. The 78 mil worth of materials neutralizes that build cost thus leaving you anything you sell over 78 mil as profit.

It would go something like this to your total worth.
-78 mil cuz of build cost + 78 mil from your minerals = 0 ISK + 2 mil profit = total sell price of 80 mil. Mining the minerals yourself does not remove the build cost, it only allows you to have the simplicity of having the minerals where you need them instead of having to transport them from where you would have bought them. Nothing in the manufacturing process is free be it bought off the market or mined yourself the value of the minerals has not changed and thus no matter how you approach getting the minerals you still have a build cost.

(Max Deveron) #52

In my context “free” is the tangible effect of being able to Zero out your investment or the fact in the case of Alpha especially you can effectively have ZERO start up cost(if you know how). This is against th only measuring tool we have, ISK.

Now in this scenario or any other…there is a cost, but no one seems to be able to explain it, see it, or provide proof of it…so my premise remains, acquiring minerals yourself is Free.

(Max Deveron) #53

Mining for income, for the sake of ISK alone is folly.

(Cassandra Masami) #54

That cost is human time spent. Several of us have attempted to explain it in different ways. It is not a game mechanic that deducts isk automatically, but it’s there. In fact it only becomes readily apparent when you have people doing something for you (i.e. employees) and you have to compensate them somehow, usually with isk, for the tasks they are performing.

As for proof of it, just look at human behavior in the real world and in Eve. People will, generally, not do something for free. Underpaid workers strike, refuse to work, or find places to work that pay better. In fact, we generally have a special names for people who work without receiving payment for their time: “volunteers” or “slaves.”

(Aldeskwatso) #55

I’d rather do something I enjoy. Even if it earns less who cares?! If I’m having fun while doing it my game session wasn’t a waste. It might take a bit longer to reach a certain finacial goal. But I think its more important how you reach a certain goal then how quickly you reach it.

(Corwin Dnari) #56

(Zimmyzam) #57

Minerals aren’t “free” not just because of the time investment, but because mining minerals is simply an exercise in gaining assets.

It doesn’t matter what assets you use to purchase something, what matters is their actual value, and it is a mistake to think the value of ore or minerals changes based arbitrarily on how you spend them.

If you mine ore that has a sell value of 100k, and use them to make a ship that costs less than the ore’s sell value, you lost out on value by deciding to produce something with that ore.

That doesn’t mean mining is always a bad deal (though refining in highsec usually isn’t a good deal and generally reduces the value of your ore because the mineral output you get is less valuable in price than the raw rock being sold on market to someone who has the ability to refine it more efficiently than you) but it does mean you should always think of ore as Isk in your pocket, rather than rocks that are “Free.”

That means when evaluating if you should further refine your materials (ore into minerals, minerals into equipment for example) you should always see how much value you gain/lose by just selling your current step and buying the next step. If you can refine your 100k ore into 101k of minerals, you should do so, but if you can only refine it into 99k of minerals, you should sell the ore and just buy minerals.

While it is technically true that your ore doesn’t cost you much of anything to get, the statement “it was free and thus your making 100% profit on what you make” isn’t true, because the second the ore is yours it has a value, and if you make it into something, your deciding to not sell it.

Put another way, if you found as a rat drop a rare officer mod, and were offered to trade it for a fully fit T1 ship, would you ever consider that trade “100% profit” because it didn’t cost you anything to get that officer mod? Of course not, because the second that officer mod is in your hold the value of your hold to sell dramatically shot up. Same with mining.

As for “Why to mine” it depends on where you are. In w-space and to an even greater extent nulsec corps often ore miners are needed to help handle everyone’s equipment, as industry becomes your corp’s lifeline. For highsec mining, the isk-hour is bad, but miners don’t require attention that much, allowing player miners to make some isk while doing something else, making it a “semi-passive” form of income. That means the supply of minerals and ore is almost always extremely high, with more materials being produced than being used. This means, in general, industrialists are better off directly purchasing minerals rather than mining it themselves because the isk cost of materials is extremely low. If, for some reason, mining got more difficult and less passive, less people would do it and thus material usage compared to material production would rise, and thus the value of minerals would go up. However this would also encourage more people to seriously mine, which would help stabilize material production.

Basically mining is easy, safe, and doesn’t require a lot of skill to do. Economics 101 tells us therefore that there will be far more miners than strictly needed and that the expected income of miners will be relatively low, because the barrier of entry and difficulty encourage a lot of people to go to it as an income source when they are unable or unwilling to do more skill or risk intensive jobs.

(LouHodo) #58

It is all about supply and demand. Currently the market is JAMMED with people like you, with small mining fleets of alts, that are just out grinding away haplessly for hours on end. So the value of many of the higher end ores has dropped because of this. While before there were less people thus less mining and in turn more demand for what they did mine, which drove prices up.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #59

this is exactly why I don’t mine for money, I mine for industry. no, minerals I mine aren’t free, however once you take into account shipping costs, even on compressed minerals for the volumes I need, it helps keep costs down considerably. and since I do most of my mining while I’m at work, where I don’t have the focus to dedicate to pvp, the value increases massively.

(Deandra Walran) #60

If I start my gaming session with 1 million ISK. I mine 1 million isk worth of ore, refine it to 1.2 million isk worth of minerals and manufacture that into 1.1 million isk of goods that are sold, ending my session with 2.1 million isk. I have profited by 1.1 million isk (assume all taxes, fees, and cost for expended crystals/boosts/ammo are covered 100% by bounties).