2.0 within EVE 1.0 (or a soft reset if you will)

@Herzog_Wolfhammer mentioned some neat ideas for a new area of space and I suggested he start a thread in Ideas to expand and muse on it further. He said that he was much too busy drinking rum n’colas to bother and passed the torch to me…:tumbler_glass:

So, these are my ideas plus some of the ones he mentioned before. For nomenclature, I will here on in refer to this new area of space as Herzog or The Herzog Region in Wolfhammer’s honor.

So throughout NE, I would envision semi-stable, permanent wormholes but just 1 per region. These wormholes would not accept anything larger than 300,000m3 (because reasons) which, and I didn’t check every ship, means BC and smaller only. There would also be a MAX number of ships allowed before the wormhole collapsed. Finally, the exit in Herzog would move every X number of hours/days if the mass limit or ships limit wasn’t tripped.

Just an estimate, the MAX total mass allowed though would also be about 300K so after a BC or hauler went though, that’s it. The number of ships counter might be in the 5 to 10 range. This is to prevent a tsunami of frigates overwhelming a system like locusts. I would also suggest that these numbers might be a little flexible based on the number of players in the exit system. Low numbers mean stricter limits while higher numbers mean relaxed numbers (slightly).

The Herzog region is massive with about 400 systems making it twice as large as Domain. In Heraog space, there is no highsec, low sec or null and no access to wormhole space. It’s its own little bubble of space.

Also, there are no NE NPC entities (exception coming soon) so no concord, no police and no infrastructure. Nothing.

As mentioned, each region in NE would have one door meaning there would be about 64 wormholes into Herzog. These doors, unlike the ones in NE, are not stable and reset location every few days (randomly). So nobody knows where they are going to come out in Herzog unless somebody posts a message and even then, it would only be valid for 1-3 days.

Initially, every system in Herzog would be standalone with no gate to neighboring systems. People could construct their own gates, known as Deteis Jump Gates that are built in pairs and used to connect systems. Of course in the future, these vulnerable but important objects would need to be protected.

The reason for this should be obvious; to limit the (easy) ability for huge pieces of the region to be taken over by mega corps. Logistics from NE would be very hard as you would have essentially a 1 in 64 (1.5%) chance of landing near where you wanted to go in Herzog. This core concept really should limit the influence NE has on Herzog as it’s just too risky to send ships in.

So then what do you do? You send seed fleets with enough supplies to set-up a station, mine, process and manufacture everything to need. Everything.

Oh and I did mention that there is no NE NPCs right? So that means, you die, you die and wake-up in NE with no easy access to where you just were. There are no clone links from NE to Herzog. But, stations in Herzong can make and have their own clone vats to support the locals.

Oh and one more thing regarding Herzog…The banking network in NE is not connected to Herzog so your ISK cannot be accessed making it worthless in Herzog. All exchanges of goods would be though contracts(ie barter) and contracts would be visible throughout the region. You are only as rich as what you have physically with you in the region. All communications from NE to Herzog are impossible so nothing works (mail, contracts, etc).

There is no faction war, no missions, no story arcs, no bounty payouts, no sec status, no gate guns…etc…There would be NPC rats though and possibly even NPC stations that are red to everyone regardless of standings in NE. Basically, the idea that Rats from NE also are coming into Herzog and setting up stations too.

For modules, I’d probably suggest getting rid of bubbles, T3 BP don’t work (again reasons) and possibly reduce the power of scrams/disrups by half to allow for more escape chances. Station times would need a rework to maybe something like NS or WS. Because death here is so brutal, the chance to escape needs to be increased.

Ores of all types would be available and hauling out of the region would be very lucrative but pretty risky as you really have no idea where you will come out in NE. PI would operate normally too. A player would face the choice of keeping their riches in Herzog knowing that they could be lost easily or try to get them out and back to NE. All one would have to do is find a wormhole and pray it goes to somewhere safe/friendly in NE…

So, what are your thoughts? What can I expand on for you? Where are there glaring issues?

What’s the point you might ask…that will be in post to follow soon…

NOTE This main post is now being updated as the thread grows…

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:sob:

…not…one…post…

…off to vent my capsule into the warm embrace of deep space. :dash:

Perhaps ‘they’ were/are waiting on the follow up post?

But to kick things off a few issues I see straight away:

How is this possible? If the ores of all types are available, which are the same as currently in NE, what makes the effort/hassle of hauling stuff out of Herzog space lucrative? I’m still only going to get the ‘current Jita price’ for my ores/minerals.

You mention that the WHs to/from Herzog space have a mass limit, but don’t mention any sort of ‘max mass’ allowed through them during their “every few days” lifetime. So I see nothing to stop ‘Mega Corp1’ from taking over Herzog space 1 system at a time… just like in WHs, once you control the entry/exit, you effectively control the system, if there’s only 1 this becomes ‘2ezy’.

The systems don’t appear to be interconnected in anyway (one door), so it’s effectively creating 400 ‘stand alone’ systems rather than a new region.

But the big one is… what’s the point?

Edit: It appears the ‘trick’ to get people to respond to posts is to post in GD and then if it picks up steam let a mod move it to the ‘correct’ place :slight_smile:

2nd quick edit: If you’re corpse is now floating blissfully through deep space, can I have your NE Stuff? :smiley:

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

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I think what I mean is that all types of ore are available in all systems in Herzog. So it actually might be profitable to get “the good stuff” and ship it back to HS if you are ok with random. This is mostly as an alternative to ninja mining. Or possibly change the from “not plentiful” for “standard availability” bust without any type restrictions like we see in NE. The bigger gain would be in manufacturing and then shipping…

Great point. To prevent that then I would think the wormhole collapse would be caused by (whichever came first) a random timer, a numbers of uses counter or a MAX mass limit.

Actually I didn’t mention this at all but it would operate much like any other region with all systems connected though gates (yes gates are there because reasons). So you would eventually see a normal region map just like what we have now.

I think this is a compromise on the mess we have now to a more “pure”(sic) version of EVE where other than basic game mechanics, we feel the effects of NPC rules less. I think you are right that the mega corps might try to make plays to grab real estate but it would take a lot of resources and time to do that which ultimately weakens their position in NE. The wormholes really make for good equalizers.

You’re also right on the GD point but I thought I’d respect the categories…silly me. When I leave EVE one day, you can have a bit of my stuff :slight_smile:

Thanks for the reply and I’ll try to edit/add more soon…

Awww, I think you’re missing an opportunity here, why not force the new inhabitants to DIY, then the ‘map’ needs to be built up by < gasp > explorers! First corp able to setup a presence in two ‘close enough’ systems can (attempt to) build a gate to connect them (some sort of mini game maybe to identify you & your corpmate are ‘close enough’).

I would also switch up things a little re connectivity to NE, there is only 1 entrance from NE to Herzog Space (HS? lol no that doesn’t work)… to really throw a spanner in the works, this 1 entrance will randomly connect two systems (NE -> Herzog), which would (I think for a time at least), limit how quickly things get populated, and prevent any 1 entity taking over the whole enchilada.

This would also prevent WH rolling which is the way to control your system (and get things in/out) in WH space currently.

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

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Actually that’s brilliant. Done and will be added. The new BP/object will be called the Deteis Jump Gate names after a famous NE scientist something something lore…

I would probably want to keep this at 1 per NE region just for ease of access to Herzog. One option would be that the random exit point isn’t at all stable and EVERY trip though just randomly plops you somewhere in Herzog. That solves the mega corp issue and actually might allow for larger ships to be sent though…want to risk a Titian when you don’t know where you will land? Good luck!

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I like it… but I think there’d need to be a time frame for pop-out, cause I don’t want my 5-man (or 50-man) fleet all ending up in different systems… specially if i’m using a frig to web my hauler into warp :slight_smile:

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

Yes that’s true…we still need timers/counters to allow for groups to go through. We’d just need to set this to a number that would allow for “easy” base set-up but not too big that a whole system could be taken right away.

With destruction in Herzog being so consequential I really hope people/groups would see the benefit of working together or at the very least, not fighting. Eventually it would get to that but not for long while.

Just your comment “I think what I mean”, just makes me think you haven’t though this though at all, but instead just posted a heap of ideas with no though of how it would work together, let alone with the rest of NE.

Another explain is you second and third comment in the OP;

“, I would envision stable, permanent wormholes but just 1 per region.

Then in the same comment you counter yourself with;

"would also be a MAX number of ships allowed before the wormhole collapsed. Finally, the exit would move every X number of hours/days if the mass limit or ships limit wasn’t tripped."

Stable wormholes wouldn’t collapse or move system, that’s why they are called stable.

So, a couple of thoughts here:

  1. Not having access to ISK is a really poor idea. The whole “just barter” thing sounds good in principle for a blank slate region but in practice trying to negotiate barter rates for every single transaction is going to be a massive pain in the ass. Need to get some ammo? Have fun trying to track down someone who has what you need, has an interest in the items you have to offer, and can agree on an exchange rate you’re both happy with. There’s a reason why every real-world civilization ends up creating some kind of currency for trade, trying to fight against that pressure just makes the new space incredibly unappealing. Unless you’re an existing powerful entity, which brings us to issue #2

  2. Your new space gives a huge advantage to existing powers. Logistics is the main obstacle to progress and the current major powers are the ones with the ability to keep regularly supply shipments coming in from normal space, get station/gate infrastructure up ASAP, do trade based on promises of delivering ISK in normal space, etc. Meanwhile the smaller groups lack these resources and are at a huge disadvantage any time they come into conflict with the major powers. Unless of course the new space doesn’t have enough value for the major nullsec powers to be interested in expanding there, in which case why would anyone care about it?

  3. More escape chances means more frustration. Outplay your enemy and defeat them? Too bad, no kill or loot for you, the “escape chance” gave them a free warp out despite your best efforts to win. That’s immensely unsatisfying and leads to people giving up on trying. Or always flying in blobs to overwhelm the “escape chance” by sheer quantity of tackle, in which case see point #2 re: existing major powers being at a huge advantage.

The EXITS are not stable…the entrances in the NE side are stable. Technically maybe that makes it a semi-stable wormhole?

Fixed…

I agree and would probably suggest the introduction of a Herzog specific currency for ease of commerce. But the main reason for not doing that early is to force people together, to talk, negotiate and figure-out how they want their financial system to work locally. Remember, for a long time, systems may not be connected so who you are with in one system might not change that much over time so commerce might be easier. But yes, once more and more systems are connected, something would need to be done.

…are the ones with the ability to keep regularly supply shipments coming in from normal space…

But remember, coming in from NE gives you approximately a 1.5% chance of landing in the system you want. This number could even be made lower if the number of wormholes is decreased or the number of systems increased (This is what I would suggest). The main goal is to prevent exactly what you are suggesting. So one could send cargo into regions and hope that they are not blown-up by hostile locals but an organized effort to support “your” region from NE would be extremely hard.

I agree but remember Herzog is almost akin to a rouge like game within the EVE environment. I don’t think we want exactly the same combat mechanics…but I could be wrong. I still say no bubbles though. Also remember that without outside (NE) help, ones ship becomes WAY more valuable to them as it’s rather hard to get a new one.

Thanks for posting

I’m not entirely opposed to what you’re saying but the ideas do need fleshing out and a Venn to see where the overlapping anguish hides.

While flying around null last night I realized I’d spend a lot more time in these systems if I could find a generic station. An area such as you suggest could be null in nature but “claimed” by certain races/factions, with one such hub in each group of systems. New players might use it as a testing ground before committing to a corp, if they knew there was a safe haven every so many jumps. No missions, no npcs, no trading, no nothing…just the ability to explore, mine, blow each other to pieces…and dock when necessary. Maybe incur a safe zone around these hub stations to avoid grief camping.

Eh, just a thought.

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Except that’s not how it would work. You get your system, park a probe alt in there 24/7, and scan down the exit side of the wormhole. And then because you’re a massive nullsec alliance with appropriate logistics support you just jump freighter all of your supplies to whatever system in normal space the wormhole happens to connect to.

But the main reason for not doing that early is to force people together, to talk, negotiate and figure-out how they want their financial system to work locally.

Again, that translates to massive extra effort and frustration trying to make a deal work. Most people aren’t going to bother with that, they’re either going to set up logistics from normal space or just skip the whole thing because it’s not worth the effort.

I envision that in the early days, a system would be run by one group BUT that group may not have an organization outside Herzog. It would only exist really in that one system. After time, once systems start connecting to each other, larger blocks may/would form but again, due to the nature of the wormholes to/from the region, an organized effort would be extremely hard. This is why I call this concept “soft reset” as the mega corps really lose their power and local Herzog groups gain.

I think new Herzog specific corps would for rather than have the old ones spill into the new area amd take over.

to avoid grief camping

Agreed. IMO, having access to turret manufacturing would solve a lot of issues (and the can only be places at stations/gates.

Thanks

They would be unmarked…I’ll add that note. Also, I’m adjusting the mass numbers to basically have the holes collapse (exits) after 300K. So even if a crew did what you suggested and had 64 scouts doing this, after one hauler went through the hole would close until server reset.

But you do point out a glaring issue and that’s the ability of EVE players to game the system and you are right, this would need to be rock solid to prevent exactly what you suggest.

I think Herzog would attract a specific type of player more than just appeal to the masses. Just like how it is now in NE and the HS/LS/NS/WS divide runs. Not everyone went west during the gold rush to get rich or to get cheap land but many did. I see the same here.

Thanks!

What do you mean by “unmarked”?

Also, I’m adjusting the mass numbers to basically have the holes collapse (exits) after 300K. So even if a crew did what you suggested and had 64 scouts doing this, after one hauler went through the hole would close until server reset.

This is a really bad idea because it means that you effectively can’t play with your friends. One person goes through and then it’s all over for everyone else, and even a single lost battle would mean spending weeks getting replacement ships in. Who is going to put up with that?

And there’s also the unfortunate side effect of making defending a system effortless until gates are built to it. As soon as the wormhole spawns you jump your 150k ship out and back and then you’re immune to attack for the next 24 hours, until you repeat it again the next day. And I would expect building gates to require getting into the system to secure both ends of the gate, so short of a lapse in security nobody can ever build a gate to get in either.

I think Herzog would attract a specific type of player more than just appeal to the masses.

If you’re only appealing to a tiny minority then what is the point of spending all the development time to implement this? You’re talking about having 400 systems when you might not even have 400 players interested, and at that point who cares how risky it is in theory when there’s zero competition for space and zero interaction with other players?

Psst, i’ve read somewhere that “The Deteis are regarded as the face of leadership in Caldari society. Commonly possessed of sharp, ordered minds and articulate tongues, they are mostly found in positions of authority within military and political spheres.”

So it’s only fair & righteous that these new symbols of connectivity are named after them! :wink:

Perhaps it’s the Caldari who first managed to settle these new systems (first NPC stations owned by them)?

Unfortunately I think this flies in the face of the “lucrative to haul stuff back to NE”, because if all the minerals/PI is in a system there’s nothing preventing the production of new ships relatively easily/cheaply (once the initial infra is in place, which sounds like it would be as difficult as getting your DST in system with a citadel/pos)… oh, lets ban citadels from anchoring! :smiley: (Assuming you can still make things in POSes) And structures on Moons only.

Sounds like you’re describing NPC Null :slight_smile: I find this all the more amusing as I’m almost certain what we’re discussing is WormHole Space v2 :smiley: I know its not, it’s totally different… but it’s really similar… I’d like to think CCP were imagining all the things we’re thinking of now as they were implementing worm holes, and then the dirty players went in and ruined it all with their emergent gameplay!

Unfortunately I don’t think this would be the case. See Eve Scout as an e.g. I’d expect that even though NE-> Herzog comms is prevented, out of game comms overcomes this and so already established groups would have a far easier time of getting a foot in the door, as Merin has pointed out, it really is WH control, with a little more scarcity of entrances (if i’m understanding things correctly).

I’ll also point out that WH groups will control a WH (scanning/camping all entrances) for 24hrs (or is it 48?) continuously to ensure they will have a successful eviction, so while a 24hr delay may seem like a long time, people do some crazy/marvelous things in the name of internet spaceships.

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

There would be no three letter designation or identifying info other than a note say that this WH goes to Herzog. So from the Herzog side, you can’t post “hey, WH XYZ leads to system BlaBlaBla”. On the NE side, you would just have the entrance but no info as to where it goes.

The only way this can be gamed would be for a small ship to go though to Herzog and report back to NE as to where they popped-out. Have a bunch of dedicated ships to do that and you could map all the WHs in 1-2 hours. But with the mass and ship count limits, that’s a lot of work that’s might be reset very quickly.

Well depending on how many, maybe. With a fresh WH, you can probably go though with 5-10 small ships so…no problem there. If you set-up a station or find a friendly on there already then you can use their clone bays.

Almost nothing is new though save for a few objects and a new database. The wheel is not being reinvented but just copied and then a new rule-set placed on it…adding new space to the game should not be hard one would hope.

I suggest daydreaming about you and those friends going though and into a empty system…you might like where it leads you.

Just a coincidence. The gates are actually named after the inventor of the Zero-G Recycling Toilet I believe.

Well it’s a Catch-22 because while you have everything you need in your system, you don’t have manpower. This is set-up so that people are a valued commodity and you can’t afford to have one of your own hauling to NE as he may never make it back. You would rather have to rely on random haulers appearing and looking for loads to bring out. Not sure how that financial transaction would-work however…maybe there is something in NE that can’t be found in Herzog and that would become the default currency.

No you are right and even with limits there is that risk. It’s not as bad but I’m going to have to think about the entrances/exits a bit more…but regular NE<->Herzog is really not easy…I can’t stress that enough as you should end-up with people that live in Herzog and those that visit in the hopes to make a quick buck before getting back to NE and hoping they get a good RNG.

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