A couple of thoughts for getting new players in

You compare real life and death with a game how sick in the head are you to make such analogy

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What I was thinking of with my “too much of everything” comment was e.g. the different types of modules that have the same purpose but different stats.

I still remember spending a few hours (a long time ago :slight_smile: figuring out the naming systems (there are several for the cheap modules /sigh), so I could choose quickly in the markets. It’s pointless and annoying.

There’s a lot of stuff like that in EVE. It looks like they left in useless relics from the early days of EVE (I suppose there was a time with all T1/T1 ships, and a max size of Battleships or one step larger?).

It’s not just modules of course, but much of it isn’t worth raising in this topic.

Perhaps the experience was comparable, perhaps not.

But there’s no good reason your past experiences has to be repeated by new players today.

And why should they put up with it? Gaming has moved on.

Yeah, but see I LOVE that :laughing:

Sitting in the back of a plane or waiting for a gig and tweaking things endlessly in PYFA is a total blast to me because there is all that depth and complexity- a little tweak here, a different module there, and adjustment to the training queue, etc. I really enjoy that.

I’m not saying that it’s right or wrong or that everybody should love it as much as I do, but that’s part of EVE’s DNA and I don’t think that it should be altered because it’s one of the things that makes EVE very unique.

That’s also why I try to spend a lot of time teaching and coaching new players so they can get their head around things and understand the level of the depth and complexity early on- hopefully seeing it as a good thing rather than a hinderance.

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Sorry! I’ll use a fake life and death analogy.

Do you think when the Minmatar rebelled against the Amarr in 23216 AD that there were Minmatarians who were upset the younger generation would have it too easy?

For 15 $ per month they can be as much lazy and dumb as they want and CCP would have to nurish and praise everyone of them …

Another ones are not so stupid to go thru that torture as you did :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Leah

Of course I can’t say you’re wrong to like all the complications :slight_smile: But I still think they’re just another “straw on the camel’s back” for new players …

… except when they have someone like you to explain of course. But that’s part of the ideal solution to excessive complexity: a good mentor and a friendly and helpful guild.

Unfortunately neither is certain for a new EVE player. And without one or both both it’s hard to get set up in EVE.

I agree. It’s incredibly easy to get completely overwhelmed, and there is a balancing act with how that is managed. It’s unrealistic to turn everything into a tutorial, but I think it’s also unsustainable to drop people into uncertainty after the NPE. Sure, there is the Rookie channel, but as much as I would love to help out there, it’s a completely miserable and unmanageable way to communicate anything meaningful. I can’t deal with the wall of text, so I never hang out there.

Actually, what would be really cool would be some kind of voluntary mentoring program- pay a vet to mentor a newbie for a week or two!

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What I’ve essentially been suggesting but would require a large amount of cooperation on part of the community moreso than the CSM to avoid the “come to null” trend.

Ignoring the ridicoulesness of your comment … does that change anything about the essence of what he said?

No. I understand that most “gamers” nowadays apparently aren’t the brightest, but that doesn’t change the fact that there must be plenty of people who aren’t cognitively challenged simply because there have been tons of people managing to succeed learning this game just fine. You know, back when there weren’t all these things supposedly making things “easier”.

It stands to reason that all these little things made for “new players” actually had the opposite effect of what CCP wanted to achieve, because they ignored that those who need things to be “more accessible” are the very same people for whom things are/were too challenging, hard. Who weren’t bright enough.

The fact that hundreds of thousands before them had no issue means that these people, who need it easier, lower the average IQ of the game’s population.

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And how do you know I’ll treat your precious new players right instead of griefing them?

Solecist

That’s pure “bittervet narrative”.

You cannot possibly support any of the claims relayed to the nature of new players. Or existing players …

… the bittervet narrative itself is so irrational that it would be good evidence that EVE players aren’t bright. But I keep hoping it’s only used by a noisy minority, rather than representing the majority’s mental acuity and grasp of logic.

Tell you what …

You make a list of these points and I’ll explain them to the best of my abilities. I can not possibly know each and every claim you came across and thus it’s unfair to assume I support anything, or don’t.

I don’t actually read your posts, so I have no ■■■■■■■ idea what it is that people claim about new players, at least beyond that which is actually true.

Solecist

I’m not going to point out all the irrational stuff in that post for you.

Either you already know those you can’t back those claims up, or you believe them. Either way it’s not worth discussing them with you.

Maybe I can give an example from the world of digital recording. Back in “my day”, to get a multichannel sound card to work properly and get any sort of reasonable performance around '95 or so, I would have to screw around with drivers, tweak things like IRQ and DMA settings and do all sorts of insane things to my machines to get anything to work. Now, it’s rare if I even have to install a driver.

I don’t get pissy with the kids these days because they don’t have to go through that nonsense. It sucked, and I’m glad nobody has to do that anymore.

However, I also had some serious limitations on tracks- I was happy if I could squeeze out 12 channels on a machine back then. Today, you can get dozens without any effort and you have space to store it all. That breeds a kind of laziness where everything is a take, there are no destructive bounces, and you can get caught navel gazing by tweaking and never finishing anything. To me, that’s usually not good. I used to have to make decisions and commit, and the modern DAW removes some of those restrictions and automates so many things that you get a lot of paralyzed or generic producers.

I DO get pissy with people over that. I don’t think that people should become over-reliant on tech to fill in the blanks of an artistic pursuit. If you’re an artist, prove it to me without training wheels.

When I talk to kids who are learning production, I tell them that challenges and limits are good for that reason. You’re here for a challenge, so embrace that. If you can cut a killer song with 8 tracks, think about what you could do with 80. One step after the next.

So, my suggestion is to not focus on what the vets did back in the day simply because that’s the way it was, but rather on what the result was and why it was important. If the “old way of doing things” yielded good results, then cool- if it objectively sucked, then why keep it? I don’t believe that crappy mechanics should exist simply because they used to be in place any more than I believe that everything needs training wheels or needs to be easy. Obviously, there are lots of shades of gray there, but nuance is needed for a lot of these discussions.

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So you’re talking about posts in this thread?
You could just link them, you know?

I’ll have a look.

Your crazy post?

I replied to it rather than to the Topic- it’s automatically linked from my reply.

Here’s a thing that changed for the worse and one that changed for better.
Training skill removal was good and now we get to train useful things at the start.
Bad thing:isk has become increasingly easy to acquire with the new limitless sov anoms

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Totally agree! 1000%

Edited to add:

I think people also used to be exposed to genuine risk and loss and lot earlier in the past, and I think that was a good thing as well. We need more of that today.

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