A Gift to the Empire, and The Nature of the War

You said it, not me…

(In seriousness, the prize for borderworlds would be high.)

I said it, but on consideration, I didn’t mean it.

What I meant was: “It sounds like the best move for the Republic is to engage in a minimal effort in the Warzone for a few decades as a pretext to allay suspicion while actually focusing on things like smuggling the components for a large number of high-yield anti-matter charges onto Athra and the homeworlds of each of the Royal Houses, so as to simultaneously annihilate the entire head of the snake.”

Which, you know, would be morally reprehensible, but no moreso than the Empire’s expressly-stated goal of utterly obliterating all other cultures known to man, ever, everywhere.

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That would all but guarantee that worse happened to Matar. Commodore Vektor might not truly be able to destroy worlds, but a sufficiently injured Empire (God forbid such an event!) is more than capable of taking the Republic down with it.

The Gallente Federation might survive the conflagration of a total escalation, though that is no certainty. Trillions would die with certainty.

So, no, that would be a bad plan for everyone except maybe Zorya.

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So you’re saying we’d want to scale it up to the point of utterly annihilating the entire Empire in a cataclysmic first strike, then.

I mean, if the entire purpose of the CEWMPA is—as you’ve framed it—a veiled act of aggression against the Republic, then there’s no reason not to respond with an act of aggression large enough to secure peace.

If the whole purpose of it is ‘bleed them so they can’t build up, without making them desperate enough to take real action’, it sounds to me like the CEWMPA is basically ‘how to boil frogs’, and it never ends well for the frog. So why shouldn’t we choose to pursue a course of potential obliteration, rather than one of certain obliteration?

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That is the only strategy the Republic has if it wants to win a war with Amarr.

Fortunately, y’all already shot that bolt in 110 and failed.

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The alternative to assured destruction in time, of course, is actually trying to make peace for real. But that would cause the Tribes to collapse, as we also saw in 110.

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Indeed. But that would require the intent on both sides, and there definitely isn’t any of that on the part of the Empire. Trying to make peace for real, after all, wouldn’t include trying to use the mechanisms of peace, like CONCORD, to wage war. Which, as I’ve already laid out for someone of far less erudition, is exactly what the Empire does.

This would not be an option as long as the very core of the Empire’s existence and identity includes the stated goal of cultural genocide against all of human kind. It’s a bit of a non-starter.

Besides, you’re vastly over-estimating the Empire’s invulnerability to war. It’d cost us nigh everything, but if there ever was a people who could allow the bloated and overstretched Empire to expand beyond its breaking point and still be able to apply ten thousand cuts until the Empire killed itself, it’d be the Tribes. So much of our people are now Voidborne that we would survive even a complete and total loss of dirt. The return of Darkness would end up in a very different place happening today, than back then.

The Emperors Heideran and Doriam, of blessed memory, both worked towards peace in good faith. They are dead, now, and that time has passed.

CEWPA is a bad compromise to avoid assured destruction after Shakor shattered that peace offer but missed his shot at the Throne Worlds. So yes, it’s a bad deal for Republic, but is best one they could hope for.

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And they weren’t killed by us.

One lived a pretty full span of years, IIRC. And the other… was killed by those in the Empire, so a Chamberlain who was secretly part of an Amarr power cult could take over. But hey, that one guy got dealt with, so it’s all good, right? Couldn’t be systemic rot in the entire hierarchy of the Empire that’ll take decades, if not centuries, to fully uproot.

At the end of the day, though, Gaven, there really isn’t much point to discussing it, is there? Actually acknowledging wrongdoing on the part of the Empire would require being critical of the halls of power, and being willing to voice dissent and dissatisfaction with the course your leaders set forth. And as you’ve made clear a number of times, you feel obedience and loyalty are the ultimate determinants of what constitutes the ‘right’ thing, even if those leaders are later proven to be Blooders or EoM.

No matter how wrong or evil the course, as long as you obey, you are doing the right thing. Which is really, really convenient as a way to avoid personal responsibility, while also being damned convenient for the monsters in power. With the added bonus that you won’t even entertain the possibility that the Empire’s actions can be morally wrong.

Edit, Ah, Lord-Consort Aldrith Suckup-to-Chakaid is posting…
aldrithposting

He’s been good-postin’ lately. Don’t discourage continuation of that.
Edit: See?

Thankfully that work is being done now. We shall see the results in time.

Anyway, it is good to see some reasonable discussuon on the prospects of war and peace between Amarr and Minmatar arise from this. I pray our actions on the front stirs some of it between our leaders as well.

Otherwise, I get to be in the vanguard to Pator! And I do not think anyone would like to see that. Well, besides my very chuffed wife.

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No, you won’t. Because you have no guarantees that the work is being done by anyone less corrupt than those you hope to root out.

The only way to ensure that is to make your leaders answerable to those they lead. And that, Aldrith, you will never do.

EDIT: Hell, if I was the insidious evil infiltrators looking to take over the Empire, the first thing I’d do would be to make sure my people are positioned to be the ones doing the investigations. Take over the secret police first, and you can protect the guilty. You can manufacture evidence against the innocent to throw them to the wolves as a cover. In an system where the idea of an actual fair trial is laughable, with justice carried out behind closed doors, by those whose work will only ever be reviewed by one another… you’re basically asking to be led by corrupt megalomaniacs willing to do anything to anyone, and violate any principle, moral, or scripture, in the pursuit of power.

Never say never.

It’ll never happen. Never.

And you know it—your own words about why you chose to publicly support Chakaid showed that. If you didn’t, your family was at risk. Not because he was a good or moral man, but because he had power, and there were plenty of people in the MIO and Tetrimon willing to use… creative interpretations of the truth, if someone in power wanted them to. The investigators themselves are corrupt.

But we both know you can’t say that, either. At best, you can issue some kind of limp denial and assurance that you don’t believe it. Because if you actually do publicly express concern like that… well, then you’re disloyal, and your family’s back at risk.

At least we haven’t gotten quite that bad. We can still say ‘Shakor’s network of conspirators murdered a large number of Republic citizens and fabricated the ‘evidence’ they left behind because they’re a corrupt bunch of sycophants in service of a madman with a lust for power’ and not have to worry about whether or not our families are next.

At least, not yet.

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I’ll tell you this for nothing, though: if the Empire really wanted to mess w/the Republic, the best thing they could do right now would be to pull Sarum’s leash. Yank him back and get him off of Floseswin and other planets in the warzone, and make it absolutely clear that nothing like that would be tolerated in the future. Do eveything they could to remove the pretext for Shakor’s ‘Emergency Powers’.

Then see if he resigns, as the law requires.

You speak as someone who believes in the power of words over deeds whilst failing to realise that yours especially have both the volume and value as grains of sand in a desert. I really have little care of what you say, Arrendis. Yapping discouragements towards me has no effect; only foolish, limp-willed children would make the mistake of believing them. Words have meaning, they have power, certainly, but mine are to be used with care. My actions, however, speak for me between those times.

I know I have made a difference in the struggle to heal my Empire, and so do others. Over and over, I have sought to prove my loyalty and ability to right the wrongs here, and with each deed my words will have more effect than that of a tongue-flapper who overuses the tasteless fruits of their empty head until theirs have no meaning. You are one of these, and attached at your hip is another. Perhaps I should be grateful your clumsy rolling through of our gardens picked up that bit of rubbish and removed it from our sight before it could do more damage to itself and us.

Despite your flawed impression of us, honesty is actually a highly valued trait in the Faith, even when speaking to power. We just do it more tactfully than the disrespectful displays seen in the Federation and Rebel Provinces. Words to live by for us:

“For it is only in the garden of a just and truthful society, watered by well measured faith, that we may cultivate the spirit of the people.”
– The Scriptures, Seventh Letter of St. Junip of Aerui

Your are correct that some have forgotten this. I have not. Many others have not. And we will remind the rest.

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:clap:

Oh, well done, Aldrith. All the right notes of seeming to demand honesty and a ‘just and truthful society’, and speaking truth to power… without ever actually being critical of anyone in power. In fact, you did it while reiterating your loyalty and simultaneously discounting any potentially critical words you may have said in the past.

I especially liked how you cast my criticisms as ‘discouragements’, though of course, they’re nothing of the sort. Good work. I hope they buy it.

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Nor was it meant as one. Gaven’s a widely-recognized scholar. Whatever insult you decided to take was entirely of your making.

I’d only be disappointed if I cared, I’m afraid. I express myself for my sake, not yours. Ask Aria, as I’ve said elsewhere: she gets me. At that point, you were the chew-toy. Nothing more.

Masochism? :slight_smile:

I know im a little late, and to be fair, i havent read all of the replies, so im not sure if this has been brought up yet. But didnt Alar Chakaid use the epithet, “Rebel Provinces”? Are you a secret follower of the EOM Aldrith? Thats what I hear whenever I see the term “Rebel Provinces”