pot calling kettle black, lol.
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Yes, because your statement is too broad to talk without it. First we need to make it as concrete as possible.
Ok. We established that your question is “were you curb stomped by player who used SP injector?”.
Now i can only say that i have LOTS of losses in 1v1 and in fleets. How would i know that person injected SP or not?
This sentence contradicts itself. Either you have 100% winning chance or this chance can be changed.
(hint: this is the main point here, whether “p2w” gives you 100% chance or it improves your odds)
again, not a native speaker, should have said, ‘almost always’, sorry…
but my point is using skill injector (and maxing skill levels through that) would not give 100% chance of winning (p2w), i even have doubts that it improves the odds for the sp injector user.
so to make it clear, i don’t see skill injectors as a p2w item.
Tell you what, you show me how to use the “How many Injectors this pilot has used” filter in zKillboard, and I’ll get the evidence for you.
Oh wait, unless you mean you were pulling unsupported opinion out of your butt, calling it a fact, then linking a completely useless database (for this purpose) as ‘evidence’.
Here’s an experiment for you. You and I each start a new character, we each do a couple Career agents to raise some starter cash, and we head out to a high sec system to fight a duel. We each have the best T1 frigate we can set up with the cash we made from our agents, and we have trained Alpha skills for 1 month to set up.
We duel, someone wins. Relatively ‘fair’ fight.
Now let’s do it again, but this time, before I head out to the dueling system, I drop $200 on Plex, stop by Jita, cash in for 20 billion ISK, buy 19 skill injectors, max my frigate skills, support skills, T2 weapons and tank, buy a Dramiel or something, bling it up, slap in a set of combat/fitting implants, and then we duel.
Now who wins?
if you don’t have common sense and lazy, of course it will be hard…
zkill shows the top killers, average normal sp accumulation can be determined, dob of these top killers are also available, ships/fits they use can also be seen, easy…
with your kb? lol, you wish…
inb4 this is an alt, so show your main?
No worries here. Not native myself too. Still we can discuss things. 
What i’m trying to show by you asking questions about other games that p2w does not give you 100% winning chance. You see that you need extreme cases to have it already (overgeared whale vs normies) because in lower levels of p2w you don’t have it (overgeared whale vs not so overgeared whale, player who dropped 1USD into p2w vs “normie”).
As soon as you move away from “p2w gives 100% winning” towards “p2w increases odds” then you will see that skill injectors are not far away from this.
Take two new characters. Both equal in experience and physical abilities. Give one SP injector and let them 1v1. Do you really think skills won’t make a difference in chances?
Am i really the only one that is concerned that some people define themselves only over their killboard? 
This is not healthy in my eyes…not even close too…
Yeah, the fact that EVE is a sandbox game diminishes the effect of pay2win greatly. I never said this is an issue on itself for the game, I’m more concerned that this is the picture new players get when they encounter EVE and find out that they have to inject x*100$ into the game to be “competitive” (which is an illusion anyway) instead of actually learning the game how we all did.
I think it is absolutely horrible to ask new players to inject SP for RL $ just to fly some ship the FC favors. Why not fly something they can use within their natural progression? There are many many options available.
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The opposite side of that question, why would you ask veteran players to fly gimped ships? The entire reason doctrines are a thing is because FCs need to know the capabilities of their fleet. If you’ve got caracals mixed in with your cerbs, are you really expecting the same level of performance?
Their natural progression is pointless, because the goal isn’t to be inclusive. It’s to win.
IIRC, ‘how we all learned it’ wasn’t when we were ‘all’ facing T2 everything, doctrine ships, T3 ships, people skilled to the gills in everything they need, blue donuts and Nullsec domination, trading against people with trillions of ISK, etc. etc.
People always talk about how newbros should ‘just do what we did’, without seeming to realize that EVE grew when the game was new, and everyone and their dog wasn’t 6 years and 30 billion ISK ahead of you. Then as the game (and players) got more developed and more advanced, it levelled off. Then as everything got real advanced, it started to decline.
There’s a reason things go that way.
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Hey, I remember you!
It’s been years since I’ve seen you the last time!
Weren’t you around 2012/2013?
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This is also a very valid point that a lot of people miss. The reality is that new players are starting off within a much different world than a lot of early players did. That’s not just speaking about the disparity between players (which, let’s be honest, it always an issue and would have been the same situation for everybody starting out after a couple of years of the game’s existence), but the broader consolidation of alliances and space control have also shifted.
Now, I don’t believe that this means that wholesale changes in the game are needed simply because of this, but the environment that players are starting out in today is a different one than it has been in the past. That’s fine and that’s normal, but I do think that some of that needs to be taken into consideration as the NPE evolves along side the game. Again, I think a lot of this comes down to establishing baselines and setting expectations.
Also, the “things sucked for me so they should suck for you too” argument is a more nuanced one in this light. It’s the difference between the maturing of the game and the core concepts in how things were designed. As an example, I grew up using Windows 3.1 and I’m certainly not going to advocate kids these days using that just to see how good they have it now. But the flip side of that is that some of the brutality of EVE is fundamentally part of its DNA and that’s different. Maturity of design vs. concept of design are two different things that need to be guided by different criteria. Making a UI suck less is a totally different thing than changing fundamental concepts like player interaction and engagements.
nice letter, but character trading have been in for as long as I can remember. skill extractors/injectors are just the natural progression of that. And it fits the game perfectly, ISK is power.
And you think signaling to new players they have to dump multiple hundred $ into a 15 year old game to participate in a meaningful way isn’t going to put them off? I think this has an absolutely detrimental effect on player retention… but what do I know…
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Well of course. That’s the point. EVE is supposed to attract/interest the more analytical, strategic, ‘intelligent’ type of player. The ones who can calculate the cost of assembling X different items from PI products and decide which one is most profitable. The ones who can balance a ship build against the tanking or ganking needs of a mission. The ones who can calculate the trade profit on hauling 10 different items across 14 systems and selling them elsewhere.
Unfortunately, those are also the people who can calculate just how long/how many $$ it will take them to become reasonably competitive in a game where other people have been training and farming for 15 years, and where all those SP and billions of ISK really count.
And those people take one good look and go ‘Nope’.
This isn’t anymore the case.
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So, why are you in this game?
because that’s the only aspect of the game significant to me.
are my academic qualifications relevant here?
good, i agree.
so let’s concentrate in educating newbros how to play the game properly so that when they decided to sp inject, it would be maximized instead of debating whether sp injecting is p2w or not.
nobody asked, it was their choice, besides, my corp./alliance is in FW, biggest ship we fly is cruisers and mostly use frigs and dessies only.
Hi! been in and out of the game but still lurking the forums. 
So many gurus want to educate newcomers and so little newcomers, practically 10 gurus on 1 newcomer 
so popular school
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I don’t think you get the chance to educate them. They enter the game, perceive it as pay2win and quit again. It doesen’t matter how wrong they are and how better you know.
CCP could fix this by not implementing macro transactions that look like classic pay2win paywalls from a stupid mobile cash grap “game” and rather stick to cosmetics only like they promised years ago (which is still questionable since you need a subscription to access the majority of skills, ships and mods)
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