A question for CSM 15 candidates

Since all the moons across New Eden got nerfed and none of the risk (Bloodraider scouts, Bloodraider miners and Bloodraider FoBs) that was introduced with original moon change got nerfed.

How do you feel about the Reward Vs Risk of the moon nerfing?

Well, that’s a good point. My personal opinion would be this.

Sorry for my bad English. Currently i am pretty sure, they are working on a bridge to hadean engine, that allows us to do more pvp. And after the moons getting more strategical, there will be more danger by enemy pilots. Later, after resources are depleted, CCP maybe should introduce a new gate, to a new galaxy, which is going to be reviewed as the second genesis ? maybe ?

Moon mining is still one of the most lucrative forms of mining, and it’s still one of the safest. You’re on grid with a structure that can defend itself, so in the end, as long as you’re paying attention, you shouldn’t have a massive amount of trouble from rats.

I think, if anything, the reward still far outweighs the risk, even after the nerf.

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I’m going to have to agree with Brisc on this one. I haven’t done any moon mining in NS, but I have done moon mining in WH space and in HS. Even though the moons have “changed” and industry players can’t rely on minerals from the moons to manufacture everything they want, the net Isk they earn is about the same. The only real nerf to HS moon mining is now they can’t compress the material they mine (since minerals have been swapped for moon good) and if they want to do industry they have to buy minerals on the market.

never could compress the moon goo anyway, so idk what you are talking about with that.

You are correct. However, you can compress minerals you mine from moons. In HS the main income came from mineral mining from moons versus moon goo. With the moon changes (At least in HS), minerals have been replaced with moon goo, which you can’t compress, making hauling more of a chore who moon mine.

What did the nerf change and was that the target?

See, follow through is important and one cannot complain about a change unless you know why it was made and what the goal was. Then you give it some time for the dust to settle and evaluate if that goal was achieved.

So, you asked about risk v reward. Was that the target? Are people still moon mining or will it dei off as nobody does it? If people are accepting the new levels of risk/inconvenience with a shrug and an ‘ok, that is fair’ attitude AND if the goals of the change have been met then I would sayb that it works.

If, on the other hand nobody moon mines now because it is just not worth it then it was a bad change (unless that was the goal)

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I think Brisc did a pretty succinct job of covering it.

I’ll add a point or three, though, just to get my $0.02 in:

  • Removing common ores from moons disproportionately hurts wormhole players and corporations more than anyone else, as it was their primary (if not only) source of common ores within their space - everything else needs to be trucked-in from K-space

  • With Gas Harvesting and Planetary Interaction, moon mining is one of the three most lucrative activities new players (alpha or omega) can engage in. In many cases, if you have access to a moon and aren’t ninja-mining you’re already operating within the safety and support of a corporation. This means that as long as you’re forward-moving with your skills, training your personal situational awareness, and flying smart you’re able to very ably and happily make hundreds of millions of ISK an hour on a high-value moon. Where’s the fire?

  • If you’re having to contest with Pirate FOBs, scouts, and miners from the new AI set you’re very likely living in high-sec (not ruling out low citizens here). This means that as Brisc said, you’re pretty safe. You’re on-grid with a structure and you can warp to a ping, dock up, the moment you feel threatened. On top of that, you have a huge opportunity for PVE being served to you and framing it as a complaint, while enjoying the retributive protections of CONCORD - if content is coming to you, use it. I think it was Einstein that said, “If you can’t change your circumstances, change your perspective.”

This is not true in HS space with current moons. We run around 50 athanors and pre changes we always mined those out before the new ones popped. We also used to have all miners in the same moon location and mine it together.

After the changes now none of our moons get mined out in high sec as it is simply more profitable to mine veldspar in normal belts. Since belts are limited people now split out so the side effect has been that people are no longer mining together as mining moons is like mining omber in the past, its the absolute last resource.

We are still obviously monitoring the situation and if veldspar price starts to come down or moon goo price go up then people might return back to more group mining. But currently i dislike the fact that the change has pushed our miners who are most new to solo mining from fleet mining.

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I can see that, given the T1 ores are now much harder to get in certain places. It’s going to have to be shipped in to nullsec and wormholes, so it makes sense that the price is spiking and folks are going to focus on veldspar over moon goo. That being said, I think the meta is likely going to shift more towards T2 production if the prices of T1 ores drive ship costs up. Those moons may end up becoming more valuable again and folks go back there.

Now, OPs question was primarily about risk vs. reward, though, and I think that point still stands. You’re pretty safe moon mining in most places, at least from the rats. And you high sec guys don’t need to worry about me and Pando and 100 of our friends swooping out of a wormhole to ruin your day.

The main problem is that the moon mining stations are not as productive as previously thought. Of course this leads to uncalculated financial risks, especially for corporations and groups that settled down in a wormhole. But people will find a way to deal with it, and given enough time I think the situation and the ore market will stabilize.
It’s sad that this economic crysis hits so hard. Have you tried to sue Upwell for false predictions? :wink:
Why should the Blood Raiders care about it? All they want is literally Blood. I don’t think it would make sense for them to change their behaviour.

Moon Mining coming to highsec was always a very confusing choice from CCP. New ore sources in HS wasn’t something that anyone appeared to be clamoring for, and the NS ores existing in complete safety in 15% variety seemed like a slap in the face to mining in NS.

Wormholes losing their moons was an odd side effect, as wormholers having at least a small source of ore for limited local production doesn’t appear to run any real risk of seriously impacting markets. That is probably the most relevant place that needs highlighting as an oversight from CCP when it comes to this change.

With the current balances of moon minerals, R4s will never be worth mining compared to even basic belt mining. That said, CCP has said that they plan to modify the recipes to balance out of the oversupply of R4 compared to other moon goos, so until that change is complete and they return asteroid belts to a state of being mineable at scale, there’s not going to be much point to discussing the matter.

Add to that the competition of NPC mining fleets and I can see why a lot of high security industrialists are miffed. It’s a question of user experience, not just raw numbers balance.

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I feel that the current risk-reward for moon mining is in a good position. The owner has the option to choose how big the yield is going to be and how much time is needed to clear all of the ore through mining. There are different types of threat and each threat has different counters.
It mostly comes down to how well you are able to organise in order to reap the benefits.

While the removal of minerals will hurt those that picked a moon because of the minerals inside, it is a change that is needed to create the scarcity to be able to improve the health of the game economy.

Risk V Reward of Null moon mining cannot even begin to be addressed fairly until the problems with current game moderation & levels of automation are fully tackled.

I partially agree on this one but having moons in HS also came with a secondary upside for corporations which was the ability to determine when the mining field spawns. So it allowed also people that are not going to log in right after downtime to join the mining fleets. We did find a great increase in mining together compared to every man split into different systems trying to find a belt that is not mined out.

I would had been more than happy to even have just the low end ores that you can find in the asteroid belts but now that they are gone the game is again heavily favoring people who are able to log in after downtime to mine the belts first and the moons with low value stuff are now left to other zones.

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Topic Moved to Assembly Hall