A significant update to Industry

[Induce_Deadline]

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

Introducing new T2 Titans/Supers wouldn’t have done anything to fix capital proliferation

I don’t believe capital proliferation was or is a problem, that’s essentially the argument I’m making.

Scarcity makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. I have a titan, took years to earn it and it was a really fun grind, subbed up to 5 accounts in pursuit of it. New players have a much steeper journey, a good 4x as difficult. That can’t be right.

Subcap proliferation isn’t a concern and neither should capital proliferation. Deprecate supers/titans as the endgame by inflating up, give us new mountains to climb.

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

A newbro still has a path to a titan. Just requires more skills. Before a titan was extremely easy to skill into for manufacturing. Now there are a few more skills needed to make it to where someone can’t just create a day one indy alt and be able to build titans within a short period (obviously injectors are a thing, but more are required now)

Have you actually completed the journey? It’s nothing to do with the skill train, that’s easy, you setup a new account for your titan pilot (must be separate from subcap main and FAX accounts) and let it skill up for a couple of years. Feed it the odd skill injector to speed up the process a bit.

The issue is the resource acquisition to create one, with the addition of PI and WH gas it’s significantly more difficult now. The other day there weren’t enough mats in all of Jita to build a single titan so you can’t save up and buy them - even if you could ratting has also been nerfed. The newbro has a much much harder journey and I don’t think that’s going to help retention. My day 1 aspiration 10 years ago was to fly a titan one day, I started grinding towards in earnest around 2015. If I was a new player today, I’d be put off starting the adventure.

And what has the policy achieved? At best a new player could get to a titan in maybe 1 year that’s actually a significant time investment far more than other games for endgame items.

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

The key here is “provided you have access to t8 gathering tools.” You got to have access to the high end stuff

I was gathering t8 resource in AO in under a month. All this smoke and mirrors and memes from the high sec carebears who genuinely thought building a titan had become a quick factory-like endeavour. You had to buy a BPC pack or hull BPC as a minimum, would need a good 3-4 rorqs, mine a lot and even then put it in build in someone else’s structure where they could unplug a service or unanchor and poof bye bye titan build job.

It took me a concerted 5 years to get a titan skilling up 4 rorq accounts then mining my ass off.

If you haven’t personally put in the hard work, you’re in no position to diminish that effort. I get the sense you don’t speak from experience.

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

Now, you can still do you N+1 rorqual mining and have all the minerals in the world, but you’ve also got to include other parts to build you N+1 army of titans.

You can try to N+1 rorq mining but you’d be better off N+1 exhumer mining due to the waste on a rorq.

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

Being apart of a small lowsec corp, we couldn’t compete with the larger neighborhood heavy weights (even with our entire ally coalition) because the heavy weights outnumbered our caps

No you couldn’t compete because the larger heavyweights have more players. That the big blob N+1 meta. Nerfing caps isn’t going to help there, if you’re up against a 20k+ alliance as a small lowsec corp, you’re getting stomped regardless.

[PixyWarrior_Ellecon]

@Induce_Deadline

New players have a much steeper journey, a good 4x as difficult. That can’t be right.

I agree they have a steeper journey. At this point in the game, being 19yrs old, there should be a level beyond just normal titans. Does that mean titans should be relatively easy to get into/build? No. Dreads can be argued to be slightly easier but still not just flat out gather these simple minerals from ore easy.

@Induce_Deadline

Have you actually completed the journey? It’s nothing to do with the skill train, that’s easy, you setup a new account for your titan pilot (must be separate from subcap main and FAX accounts) and let it skill up for a couple of years. Feed it the odd skill injector to speed up the process a bit.

The path to actually sit in one takes around a year. This is not what I am debating. I am debating the actual building of one.

@Induce_Deadline

it’s significantly more difficult now. The other day there weren’t enough mats in all of Jita to build a single titan so you can’t save up and buy them

Correct, the addition of the PI/Gas has made it harder to build because a titan should not be “easy” to build. Of course there arent. The current level of materials needed it extremely high. That is why this 2nd update to the Blue Prints is coming. To reduce that level so it is easier to acquire everything. I never said current levels of materials needed were good.

@Induce_Deadline

I was gathering t8 resource in AO in under a month

How many hours a day did you play. Ive dabbled in AO occasionally and never proceeded beyond lvl 4/5s due to the amount of time needed to gather enough to proceed to the next level. Spent plenty of time trying and just grew tired of it.

@Induce_Deadline

You can try to N+1 rorq mining but you’d be better off N+1 exhumer mining due to the waste on a rorq.

Now yes. before no.

@Induce_Deadline

No you couldn’t compete because the larger heavyweights have more players

No we could compete. Our sub cap fleet were typically even. It was the fact that the heavy weights had 30-50 alts sitting in dreads where as we only had 10-20. Of course in Null when you are a new/small corp/alliance going against a coalition you will almost always get hammered. However, if caps actually had value again, even if you were able to destroy a few of the coalitions it would hurt them in some respect.

[Ranar_Linyne]

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

The original dev team is not around anymore

Never has a more obvious statement been uttered here.

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

still not just flat out gather these simple minerals from ore

You’ve clearly never built capitals.

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

if caps actually had value again

How much should a dread cost? They were ~2b before this change just for the hull, and could be killed by a coordinated cruiser fleet. Specifically how much more isk should that hull be worth??

[PixyWarrior_Ellecon]

@Ranar_Linyne

You’ve clearly never built capitals.

I have. I know they have “components” that are needed. Before the changes those components needed only minerals mined from ore. Which was easily accessible everywhere in null. Hell iirc you could get everything in lowsec just about as well. Now, there are added raw materials other than just minerals.

@Ranar_Linyne

Specifically how much more isk should that hull be worth??

A fully fitted dread with a T2 fit, in my opinion, should cost around 4-6bil isk. Which would put the hull at what 3-5bil? Which I think is what the projected cost for them will be once the new update comes through.

[Induce_Deadline]

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

Does that mean titans should be relatively easy to get into/build?

They were never easy to get into/build even at the height of the rorq meta. It still took years.

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

Correct, the addition of the PI/Gas has made it harder to build because a titan should not be “easy” to build.

They were not easy to build prior to the changes, but let’s assume you’re right, what has the resource increase achieved? Players have left in droves over it, people didn’t embrace the harder journey capital production stopped altogether. The content was removed, so much so CCP have walked back a good proportion of the changes.

That also meant NPSI fleets had far less to hunt which meant less def pings providing content to alliance members and less of the big ticket supercap battles that garner gaming press attention and big streams.

The changes have been a complete failure. A remarkable and totally unnecessary act of self-harm.

@PixyWarrior_Ellecon

No we could compete. Our sub cap fleet were typically even. It was the fact that the heavy weights had 30-50 alts sitting in dreads where as we only had 10-20

So put in the hard work yourself, complete the multi year journey for your alliance. I got my ass kicked all over New Eden by PL when I was in TEST leading up to UALX.

[Ranar_Linyne]

■■■■ change is still ■■■■, lest we forget.

[When_is_Dinner]

If they add stuff to t1 bs manufacturing that will also make loyalty points more valuable.

They should add more stuff i. Manufacturing of all this that are also sold by loyalty stores.

[Ranar_Linyne]

They have officially walked back about half of the crap they added into faction subs and t1bs. Meaning, they know they ■■■■■■ up. Problem is the players ability to produce these hulls are still just a limited as before. If it requires any pi,goo,gas, reactions its too much. That still keeps their production firmly attached to established indutry, and not everyone as was the original intent. Keep going ccp, you’re halfway to a good decision.

[MalcomReynolds_Serenity]

you don’t know what the original intent was or the point of the game is.

[Ranar_Linyne]

Its pretty obvious from the 18 years of adheasion to it.

[MalcomReynolds_Serenity]

you are also unaware of the various rounds of industry changes that took place over the last 18 years that required different skills and blueprints.

[Ranar_Linyne]

Faction subs have always been minerals plus scarce and expensive bpc. Always. Making them available to literally everyone universally if they happened upon a bpc. Lots of changes, that never did. Until last year when these cucks took it from everyone and hand delivered all faction subcap production to established t2 manufacturers.

[MalcomReynolds_Serenity]

Yep, definitely unaware. the blueprints haven’t been scarce or expensive since the abundance error and before the abundance error, the minerals weren’t cheap either.

And yeah, having to have libraries of ore reprocessing blueprints and some skills that are either not in the game or were converted to something else did change production.

You keep repeating that ‘t2 manufacturers’ are producing them and its false every time. Lose your obsession with running ded sites and run missions instead of you want to produce the ships so badly.

[Ranar_Linyne]

@MalcomReynolds_Serenity

produce

Note the word you chose.

[MalcomReynolds_Serenity]

get gud. No one is building the ships to produce them.

[Ranar_Linyne]

**since posts still cannot be edited because the isds wont turn off slow mode even though weve seen them do it on other, much newer, threads…

Then they are buying them from npcs, not producing them. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it forces a specific playstyle. One that i find boring and tedious.

@MalcomReynolds_Serenity

get gud

Everyone has access to zkill. You are no authority on what is “gud”. You are food.

[MalcomReynolds_Serenity]

the play style of LP farming ships in missions is the same as farming the blueprints except missions are faster. If anything mission running is less tedious than ded site running.

[Ranar_Linyne]

Mission rats don’t drop 1b+isk items either. They also can’t work out to be one bpc per mission, which is highly unlikely but not impossible in ded sites. I have gotten 6 in a row before. They also tie you to a particular faction, area of space, sometimes even a single system to keep running those missions. None of that is true for ded runners.

[Ranar_Linyne]

Sh!t change is still sh!t.

[Snowflake_Tem]

@Ranar_Linyne

I’ll be glad to give my assessment. I dont have high expectations,

Prolly wise.