When is it more optimal to use passive armor tank, i.e. not fitting active repairers, versus fitting a repairer?
Depends on fleet size mostly, if you are in a bigger fleet and have logistics ships, fit buffer. If you are a smaller gang or solo with no logi, active tank. Buffer tanks for shields can work for smaller fleets though, especially for ships with high passive shield recharge.
If you expect to take a lot of damage, like with a fleet v fleet engagement, buffer is better because you will last longer.
If you expect to take less damage (or you want to leave more fitting room for tacke and guns) you can do active. It can’t take big hits or high DPS nearly as well, but you can survive low-level DPS for your class a lot longer.
Also, some ships get bonuses to different tank types. Ships with Armor HP Bonuses (like the Augorer Navy) are almost always buffer fit, and ships with armor rep bonuses (like the Incursus) are almost always rep fit. Ships with resist bonuses (like the Punisher) can be used with either type very well (although the Punisher is usually buffer for other reasons).
idk about active tank, seems to me to only work when you bling or with specific hulls
when I tried 1v1 destroyed proving grounds, I could not put up together a active tank that would beat passive tanked ships, in fact they overran me extremely quickly and I usually had to sacrifice some dps to put that tank so I had no chance at all, maybe that active cruisers can stand up 1v1 against passive…
tbh active tank seems very weak in PvP
That explains why a lot of the fittings I’ve seen for PvP focus on damage tanking.
Best Passive Nano ships
I’m guessing the goal of that is to be so fast that the enemy simply cannot hit you?
All of these are pretty close to right. If you are in a kitey or control ship, active is a very good option, due to its sustain power against more numerous foes and also because it doesn’t give any sig radius/mass/damage penalties (shield, armor, hull). If you are a midrange damage dealer or other ship-of-the-line that isn’t bonused for reps, you might want to use buffer.
Also keep in mind that buffer tanks use no capacitor, and they are also hands-off, meaning that one can more easily micromanage locking, EWAR, heat, intel, and module operation.
Let’s put it like this, as long as your ship is faster than your opponents ship, you can leave if it does not go like you imagined. People call it kiting, even though there is no wind in space.
Or getting under the guns, that works too.
In any scenario where you can stay alive long enough that your active repair systems can negate more damage over time than a passive buffer would have lasted, active tank is superior. That usually means you can either dictate range or application or your active rep is so strong (bonused ship/links/implants/blingtank) that you can tank all or at least a majority of the incoming damage while constantly reducing the enemy DPS by killing off their ships. Thats why buffer is better the bigger the enemy fleet is, the incoming damage is so high, that your reps just don’t make much of a difference.
You are a new/inexperienced player and have trouble to focus on too many different tasks, like range, overheat, application, watching the grid and local, managing your cap… all at the same time. Fit passive tank to reduce stress and focus on the most important tasks: applying DPS, overheating your guns without burning them out, be aware of the scenario. If you get primary you won’t pop instantly, giving you more time to break tackle, get range or get help from your fleetmates. With an active tank you have by far more complex things to do, like making sure you don’t burn your cap too fast, not overrep, especially with ancillary reppers that require paste, overheat management…
You dualbox multiple clients, like having a Logistic, Prober, Bait etc. on a different account. You will have to split your attention, so its best to have as few tasks as possible at the combat ship. Your fleet should hold you up in that case, by prelocking you with the logis. Or you fit just pure bricktank and hope you won’t get primaried. I don’t say its impossible to fly an active tank as well in that scenario, but its definitely harder and not many people are able to do it without significantly losing efficiency.
Fantastic synopsis. Simply fantastic.
OK imagine you can fit a plate with X HP or a repper with N HP/S.
If your ships lasts X/N seconds after you go into armor, your active tank gave you as much HP as the plate. But you spent a lot of cap just running the damn thing and cap can be used to do things like EWAR, scramble, or even just position yourself better.
If your ship lasts 3X/N seconds after you go into armor, the active tank was probably the best choice if you aren’t facing neut pressure.
If you get targeted by 30 Hurricanes and get blown up before reps even start, a buffer tank is probably better. That said, I do remember one guy mentioning his FC ordered 60 Artillery Munnins (this was an older era when he was in a different corp) to shoot his primary and the other 190… just shoot anything in optimal range. Also the blues were fighting with a mixture of tackle frigates, blaster Propchies, blaster Butrixes, Ham HACs, Blackbirds, and Artillery Canes and were spreading their damage all over the place. This resulted in lots of damage being spread out over the attacking fleet. I don’t know if the attackers should have gone with buffer (to make being volley off as hard as possible) or active tank (because only a small faction of the damage was being used in alpha strikes and most were being spread across the fleet). Then again, when you’re hot dropped and outnumbered 3 to 1, they were probably doomed anyways.
This is largely wrong.
The enemy fleet was hosed anyway, buffer is still better. Only your fleet’s insane DPS allowed the FC to give the “fire at will” command. That one’s usually pretty rare.
You neglected to take into account the speed penalties of armor or the sig penalties of shield when buffer fit, and you also didn’t mention the capless Ancillary Shield Booster.
3x/n is complete nonsense. It all depends on scaling. Maybe you have a huge active tank that is way bigger than a reasonable buffer (Vagabond, Hyperion) or vice versa (Coercer Navy Issue, Augorer Navy Issue). It also depends on your resists. An active Sacrilege, for example, is probably a better all around brawler in the average situation than an active Muninn.
You also have to consider bait tanking. When you buffer fit, you have no options for HP deception (outside of hull tanking). If you have an XLASB cruiser, for example, and are being kited by a Slicer for example, you can heat your hardener until they get through shield, turn it off (to save cap) and pelt them with Barrage, Scorch, Rails, or Heavy Missiles (or your light drones) while they go through your armor and into hull. They are more likely to go in for a desperate kill if they see you low, even if you would kill them in a more extended fight.
When you get low hull, you activate hardener and light off heated boost. Gottem.
It also depends on rig slots. A ship with tight fitting might want to go active because it uses far less CPU and grid. Also, buffer tanks really shine when all three rig slots (or both on T2 ships) are used for more buffer.
Depending on the available fitting room, different tanks might outperform even in a suboptimal role because of other benefits to the fit, such as better propulsion, better tackle, bigger guns, etc.
A faction MSE uses 26 PG and 28 CPU (or vice versa), whereas a MASB uses 12 PG and 50 CPU. They give similar EHP amounts. Fitting a MSE instead of a MASB could allow for upgraded webs, tackle, damage control, and damage mods. Choosing the MASB could allow for upgraded guns, propulsion mods, or tank (if you had to use a MAPC for a low otherwise).
That doesn’t work for either an active or passive armor tank.
What do you mean? It works like both a burst active tank (especially in long kitey engagements where you can reload) and an extended buffer in brawls. If you have multiple ASBs, it is most certainly an active setup. If you have a single oversized ASB, that’s a burst buffer.
He means in a topic about ARMOR tank, SHIELD boosters are off-topic.
It’s still a viable module on an armor tank as he said he wanted to do deception tanking. He can fit buffer armor and armor hardeners/membranes, get cap neuted to the point his armor hardeners fail him, and once the deception fit’s adversary feels confident he’s going to get the kill, the deception fit engages the ASB and shows him he was wrong.
Another point here is untuned or omni-tuned T1 tank: T1 armor has good EM but poor EXP resistance while T1 shield has high EXP but low EM. If his adverary was shooting him with em, his shield might evaporate (esp. as he isn’t a real shield tank), but the EM might prove so ineffective against his armor which is his primary tank, that the adverary reloads kinetic or explosive. Once the armor gets lowish, cycle the ASB and the kin/exp will shoot into shields that have good kin/exp resist.
i will always remember the “free fire on titans” that i heard during M2- battle
i could not stop laughing
Sorry OP for me asking about this off topic thing…
@Wyk_Bathana Were you there? I head the attackers warped in a cyno ship uncloaked and then cloaked once on grid while he waited for the battle to start. I don’t know if this is true, but this sounds… not very smart. HAMs, Medium Blasters, and Torpedoes have high DPS but bad range if the Imperials knew exactly where the cyno spot was, they could just park their fleet there. It makes more sense to me to warp in cloaked and then only decloak when the cyno is lit, so that sounds like a fat finger mistake more than a deliberate tactic to warp in uncloaked. I did see an artcile by William about that battle from the Imperial’s perspective, but he didn’t mention anything about an uncloaked cyno ship (although by the time he logged in, he was just following the FC’s orders to go to a certain location, so his account doesn’t porove it one way or another).
I recall some Blaster Burtixes get on some killmails. Were they a deliberate part of the tactic or was this a case of people reshipping with whatever they had in the keepstar?