I’d say the Amarr have currently, maybe, survived the Jove? As I believe outlast means to have been in existence longer than someone else.
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Only to continue existing when the other stops. But yes, you’ve hit upon the crux of both Elmund and my point.
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No, just other horrendous atrocities…
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What little is known of the Jove includes 3 things. The “First Jovian Empire” supposedly lasted 9000 years before collapsing into anarchy. The “Second Jovian Empire”, lasted for 2500 years before collapsing into anarchy. The “Third Jovian Empire”, the one that collapsed into nothingness ‘yesterday’, lasted a mere 500 years.
Emperor Heideran VII, may his soul be at peace, reigned in Amarr for 300 years. I would hardly call a Jovian Empire that lasted barely more than the reign of a single Amarr Emperor, ‘enduring’.
And while the Imperial Orthodoxy has endured for 6000 years, it did exist for 8000 years before that, albeit as a far less centralised organisation in a time where there was no Amarr Empire as such.
So, we can see that Amarr society, the core based on the teachings of the Prophet Dano Gheinok, has endured for a total of some 14000 years, without falling into the kinds of anarchy that has been the end of several other civilisations.
Amarr Endures.
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The Federation, where it is still legal for a 40 year old celebrity to take a not-quite 10 year old girl as a wife, despite said celebrity already having a wife, husband, and numerous playmates.
It’s just not fashionable at this time amongst the Gallente glitterati.
On par with the Empire ?
I use this forum’s features at you, madam. 
Thank you Sister Louella.
It’s not just bombings I want to see stop. I want to see enslavement of Amarr citizens stop and reparations paid for those who have died. It’s impossible to see the future for a peaceful reclamation of the Republic when this is ongoing.
Here are a few quotes from my personal collection from Federation and Republic backed Minmatar capsuleers, which can all be checked against the IGS record:
“Over the past year I have been leading raids into Providence and Amarr with the express intent of collecting Amarr slaves. As of late I have been forced to take a break from my usual pillaging, and can now sit back and truly appreciate how freakin awesome the Amarr perform this role. […]If you are looking for slaves, I highly encourage you to look towards the less defended areas of Providence and Amarr. Also, I have found it easy to collect a few additional slaves in between Sansha raids, since Concord is so preoccupied with the true nation. I will happily provide any details to anyone who wishes to hear more.”
- Eternum Praetorian
“Those (Amarr) slaves already have a use. They’re one of the material requirements to build Amarr outposts.”
- Mallak Azaria
“Are there any other Gallente citizens like me, who own a slave and are proud to say you are a kind and benevolent Master, continuing to uphold the ideals of the Federation while exercising your freedom to enslave and own beautiful young girls (of all races)…”
- Leto Aramaus
“I to own slaves. Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar slaves. They’re fed well and in good health.”
- Hail Goddess
And these are just the ones who publically talk about this sort of thing. The raids are happening in Providence, we’re not stupid, and just because it isn’t talked about in the Republic doesn’t mean the whole of Amarr knows about it. So accept responsibility for this and make concessions for it. I have never heard to this date a public denouncement of any authority against Republic Minmatar slavers.
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Oh noes, a thing was found, therefore generalization!
Yeah, if picking only the bad examples you might happen to find, and then using them to say this represents the whole, is all you’ve got then this conversation is already over. Also, shame on you for being so unabashedly disingenuous.
The above applies equally to you, @Akkad_Akaya.
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Would you have preferred it if I had simply asserted that the Federation legal code allows many, many instances of immoral behaviour ? Things that would be illegal under Amarr or Caldari law ?
So that you could then say “where is the evidence ?”, and try to dismiss the statement ?
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I’m still trying to verify your previous claim. But if a gish gallop is what you need to do then you’re not really interested in facts. Further just because something is illegal in one society or considered immoral does not automatically make that society right.
You’ve brought a claim so far, not evidence. Even if your initial claim is true you’d have to provide evidence that this applies to all the Federation and then a convincing argument that you should have any say in the matter.
If you really want to play this game though, we could be here for days tossing one biased example after another at each other regarding the Amarrian Empire and the Federation.
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Try looking up the Ahvir en Foilien scandal from a few years back. I remember reading about it in the celebrity gossip magazine at the time.
I will look this up when I get some time today and with a proper response, critical and reflective. I appreciate you wanting to defend your empire and way of life, but if you are willing to enter into a discussion on the merits and faults of the different interstellar governments then so am I. Let’s try to keep it civil and without “dirty tricks”. Agreed?
It is not a strawman version of secularism. I am aware that secular societies are ones that separate religion from government - I lived in the Republic for awhile after my emancipation, after all. My position is the same. It is a bad thing. You eliminate the moral center of politics by separating government from religion. How can you trust leaders who are not accountable to God’s teachings? Priests are worth listening to, not secular politicians looking for ways to fatten their wallets. Earthly power has to be checked by spiritual submission. What value is a law if that law runs counter to God’s will? And if God’s laws cannot be enforced by legal action because they are not recognized as legally binding by secular authorities, then you give people free rein to disobey them.
Worst of all, once you open the door to secular thinking it will inevitably filter down into the whole society. It establishes religious adherence as something you can just set aside whenever it isn’t comfortable. “Religion is a thing that you do in churches. Outside of church, you may live an atheist’s life if you choose. And definitely keep it out of government, our leaders should never govern according to God’s teachings, because some people might not like that.” Faith is not so trivial that you can just pick and choose where you want it to apply. The Imperial Rite is a supreme moral authority; it is supposed to guide how you live your entire life, not just pieces of it.
The only fear for a theocratic government is of base, sinful individuals gaining power and using that power to tempt and corrupt the faithful. And that must be opposed, absolutely; checks must be put in and consequences must be enforced against those who would abuse their power. But eliminating the faith from government does not stop those individuals, it just gives them even more freedom to do it. In a secular government, if a Sanist gets into power (which can happen in a society where there is ‘equal treatment regardless of faith’ laws), as long as he hasn’t done anything illegal by secular law then there would be no cause to remove him, even though his faith will certainly twist his political views and influence those beneath him.
A theocratic government is one that is enlightened and beholden to moral teachings. It encourages true unity, not a strength-through-diversity “unity” where people are content to just watch as other people to run rampant into sin and deviancy.
It is part of the Reclaiming, as I mentioned in my list of the key most important aspects of the Reclaiming in an earlier reply to you.
The great Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.
To do so the enemies of the outside had to be defeated and the enemies of the inside controlled.
-Book I, 1:14
In my opinion it is the most important part, because someone who has not Reclaimed their own soul cannot hope to Reclaim the souls of others. Amarrian slavery as it is supposed to be is one in which the enlightened give guidance to the lost and penitent, and where it fails it fails because those who should be holders of faith and wisdom are not. How can a Holder punish sinful behavior, if his own sinful actions get overlooked by mere virtue of his race and status? We’ve taken our supposed holiness for granted, claiming credit today for the righteousness of those chosen by God thousands of years ago. We need to look inwards now, instead of outwards, and judge whether each of us is truly worthy of God.
“Be you a freed slave, a descendant of slaves, a merchant, a Navy officer, a Holder, or even royalty, it is paramount to remember the roots of the faith. All men are created to serve God and do His will. It is not merely time served that shall be rewarded, but the conviction and faith with which you serve.”
-Yonis Ardishapur
Yes.
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By holding them accountable to the interests of those they lead.
As long as the priest’s spiritual authority is temporal authority, then no, priests are just politicians. They have a massive self-interest in maintaining temporal power that has nothing to do with spiritual righteousness. It’s a corrupting, corrosive influence on spiritual leaders, and corrupted spiritual leaders spread that corruption through all those who trust them to be providing true, unadultured spiritual guidance. They set bad examples. They give bad advice (advice aimed not at the well-being of the listener’s soul, but the speaker’s authority). And when their corruption is rooted out, they damage the faith of all those who trusted them, and make them question much of what they thought was true. They can drive the faithful into full-on apostasy.
You bring that up yourself as ‘the only fear for a theocratic government’. It’s not a fear. It’s an inevitability. The greater the power, the greater the lure of corruption. And what does that say about those at the top who wield absolute power?
The only spiritual leaders you can trust—ever—are those who reject temporal power, and seek only to live their own lives as best they know how. Those people are inspirational. They make people want to believe. They draw people to their faith… and would likely draw more, if not for the counter-examples of the Theocratic system.
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Separating the faith from government is not the way to fix that.
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tieing one to the other is neither also. religion is not per se evil yet more a death of spirituality as it could flourish. an open spirituality embraces human live and enables him to develop freely. not forcing him to crawl in patters trodded by many.
the amarr faith is just a trodding on known pathes leading docility.
so far my personal view.
If the only ones you can trust are the ones who eschew temporal power, Samira, then the only one who can be trusted to lead the government are the ones who won’t.
What you’re looking for is a culture where the values and beliefs of the church permeate the populace, and so the government is run according to those values and beliefs… but to tie one to the other only perverts both.
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Arguing that Empire should simple drop slavery is as difficult as arguing that Minmatars should simply stop drawing tattoos, or Gallentes should simply drop democracy. And it’s not difficult, it is just wrong. It is just bullying. With exception of you, of course, and other Imperials. Because it’s your slavery and you can do with it whatever you want. You don’t like it? You remove it. You like it? You keep it.
Conquest, in comparison, can be judged and other nations can demand you to stop that - because it’s what you do outside of your home. But slavery - it’s what you do inside. And when other nations tell you to stop that, it’s better either to tell them to shut up, or demand in exchange something that they like, for example, to remove every tatoo from every minmatar skin. That would be fair.
I find the topic of this thread false advertisement.
EDIT: I also hate this new reply functionality. This was aimed at everyone, not just Miz.
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use the one on the bottom-left, not bottom-right.
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And here I felt so special.
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