So we dont curse this thread into damnation. That would be a sn!
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We really cannot change others, but we can change ourselves. And that is actually what we all should do, regardless who we are, Caldari, Amarr, Minmatar⌠To live means to change, to enhcance, to advance, to progress ourselves.
But while we can (and should) change, we must not change the way OTHERS want us to change - because, frankly speaking, whenever others want to change you, they want to make you⌠weaker.
Take for example our (Caldari) history. Gallente tried to change us. They wanted us to make pathetic democrates and filthy shameless hedonists. But we refused. What would happen if we followed Gallente ideals? We would become weaklings like them, and if we decided again to leave them (when they were changing laws to subjugate us) and went war on us - we wouldnât stand the chance, because there are simply MORE gallente than us. They would defeat us both in war because of numbers, and both in their political democratical rooms - again because they have larger numbers. Instead, we have chosen to remain strong, and we won our independence against larger federation of weaklings. And we still change ourselves - change to become stronger. Not weaker.
So, the next time any minmatar (or gallente) will tell you how you shall change, just spit into their face and make your own choices. Follow your own dreams, not theirs.
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You realize youâre saying this to someone as they tell the Minmatar how they âshall changeâ, right? That the entire reason the Minmatar/Amarr violence is happening is because the Amarr attempted to force us to change, and we are still doing exactly what you suggest: spitting in their faces, right?
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But with no sin, there can be no absolution. Still, maybe we should try to avoid the retribution of those who might swear vengeance.
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Then I challenge you to progress yourself. Join me in a dojo and forget we are Caldari and Gallente born. Just spend the day learning from each others arts. Iâll even bring the genmai cha.
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Iâve got it !
What we do, is this:
We genetically engineer the Minmatar to be twice as tall.
That way, they will not fit in any of the existing Amarrian architecture, or in the slave holds of the Bestowers and Sigils.
Faced with the cost of replacing the entire built environment of the Empire and refitting the entire merchant fleet the Empress Catiz 1, being a financially-orientated lady, will realise that the cost of maintaining the institution of Minmatar slavery is not worth the benefits, and shall outlaw it within the Empire.
This shall remove the slavery issue from the table, allowing a settlement to be reached.
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Dear meâŚ
This is unexpected. Pleasanly so. Youâre actually putting effort into finding a viable middle-ground. It only took five months, but at last youâve actually put together something reasonable.
Iâm proud of you, Arrendis. Perhaps we can get along after all.
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Speaking as a Matar I would be happy to see the Republic completely dismantled. Now, why is this thread called the âAmarr-Minmatar Conflictâ again?
Shouldnât it be called âActually interesting ideas for ending the Amarr-Republican Conflict?â
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Empire-Republic conflict then. If you want to be like that, at least try to treat both sides equally, you knowâŚ
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Yes, youâre right! My mistake. But this idea of equality and precision youâve brought up comes back to the whole problem of Republicans presuming they speak for all of Matar when they make their proclamations, when they murder innocent civilians, when they brand their own people as outcasts for life for not towing the party lineâŚ
Do you know that the one of the top commanders in the Empressâ armed forces in her lowsec holdings is Matari, for example? I donât want to hear the tired Republican line that heâs âjust a mercenary.â He wears a gold earring in his ear with the symbol of Amarr, he often speaks of the Empress Catiz I with great respect. Why does the other side of the Matar story never come up?
I think the Republicans are more tyrannical than the Amarr. Having done nothing wrong, if I were to set foot in the Republic today, I would be arrested and thrown into a shanty town planetside that is filled with disease and poverty.
Why? Because of a â â â â â â â tattoo I acquired in one of their stupid rituals.
The Republic is insane, and it is for this reason it must be destroyed. I realize that the Federation is using them as a shield against any possible future Amarr aggression, but we moderates could certainly do a much better job of that, while simultaneously achieving peace with Amarr.
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Well, I cannot argue Minmatar and Republic business with you, since I am neither Minmatar, nor Republician. I can argue only about their external policies - like their disposition towards Empire. How Minmatar organize themselves itâs their business and their alone. And I am fine with everything as long as they stop bullying the Empire.
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Ah well, now thatâs really interesting proposition from @Arrendis, and I am quite surprised as well! It might even work⌠theoretically. And I see here one âunderwater stoneâ in choosing of CONCORD officers: for example, he could be picked from the Federation, that is known for their absurd anti-slavery views. So I would instead offer to choose judges with following criteria:
- They shouldnât be one of the Faith;
- They shouldnât be against Faith, should never have criticized Faith or be brought from society where Amarr Faith is viewed negatively;
- They should not be loyal to either Republic or the Empire in the present or the past;
- They should not participate in any slavery relation on either side in the present or the past;
- They should never have criticized slavery, shall not be brought from the society with negative views on the slavery, they shall not oppose the concept of slavery by moral, personal, religious or socio-cultural reasons.
But then, there is another underwater stone.
I am pretty sure the Empire most likely will agree for the trials, just because slave raids violates their own laws. Though I would expect some tensions in here, because being judged by unfaithful foreigners might be⌠humiliating.
The real problem comes with the Republic. Will they even consider giving our participants of anti-slavery raids? And there are several reasons why I consider this problem will actually happen. First of all, Mr. Shakor himself, as far as I know, was a participant of such raids, and that would mean he shall be judged as well, alongside with those Amarr, who were conducting illegal slave raids. His face expression when he would hear that will be priceless!
And Mr. Shakor is just first part.
We have heard already opinions from the Empire that illegal slavery raids are bad practises and shall be stopped. But did anyone hear from any Republicians that illegal slave kidnapping raids are bad? Noo~ they will just cry âWe come for our people!â
And I can see how that happens. âIf there is a slave, it is our for taking.â They use that gallente word ârightâ, claiming they have ârightâ to take these slaves. Donât it remind you other group of people, who usually sit behind bars (or under Vitoc in the Empire)? âIf you wear pretty dress, you will be my wife.â It is a typical criminal formula.
While I myself agree that slaves, who were enslaved illegally, really shall be released, but these people - they donât make any distinction. âIf there is a slave, we take it.â Why we have this formula, donât negotiate with terrorists? Because their conditions are always illegal and bring destabilization, putting civilians at risk. Can you imagine, what would happen, for example, if the Empire would just release all first-generation slaves? Especially those, who were enslaved for violent crimes?
And thus, I deeply believe they will demand you to give out your criminals, but wonât give out their own. Maybe I am wrong. I hope I am wrong, and maybe they will agree to this⌠And that will be just too good to be true. Alas, I am only a realist and I donât think there will be other solution than just winning the war by force.
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Exactly. The only slaves that are legal within the Empire are those that have been captured during the Reclaiming, not those that were captured by slavers. In fact, slavers have been repeatedly disavowed and targeted for violating the Scriptures. As they say:
âI give to you the destiny of Faith, And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given.â - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming, 22:13.
They do not state that you shall raid and capture, the Amarr shall reclaim and conquer in the name of God with all their power, not a few petty criminals.
I do admit that many slavers still operate, but that is due more to the corruption that has spread like a plague among the hierarchy.
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Aldrith, you clearly misunderstood my earlier comments.
I was quite sincere when I said that in order to move forward, the first necessary step is trust. And that we have to identify the problems in order to overcome them. Simply throwing out PIE-in-the-sky wishful thinking wonât do anyone any good.
So, the first step has to be not moving forward⌠but addressing where we are.
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I totally agree, Diana! Letâs dismantle the Empire, too!
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Pro-slavery or anti-slavery is irrelevant. The issue at hand in such things would be âdid they violate the law?â
Next:
In order for this process not to be horribly backlogged by past cases (Really, Diana, Iâm surprised a Caldari didnât see the immediate, massive, bureaucratic nightmare attempting to prosecute âanyone who ever did itâ would cause), there would need to be an amnesty in the form of âwe look at cases moving forwardâ.
Iâm more than happy to adhere to this formula. After all, the original invasion was not a legal act. Remember, weâre talking about crimes committed by Amarr against the Matari, and by Matari against the Amarr. Thatâs why this has to go to CONCORD at all. And the Day of Darkness was definitely a crime committed against the Matari by the Amarr. It was a cowardly orchestration of millions of kidnappings, murders, and rapes. The only crime the enslaved descendants of those taken in the Day of Darkness have committed is being born a slave. Which, technically, isnât actually a crime, even among the Amarr. You canât be enslaved for being a slave.
So sure, letâs go with ârelease those who were illegally enslavedâ. Because thatâll be 90% of the Amarr Empireâs slaves, at least. And if the Empireâs willing to commit to that, I canât imagine the Republic would even blink before accepting the idea of turning over those whoâve been violating Imperial territory. Hell, I donât even think they would blink.
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Arrendiot.
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Why not?
All you have to do now is to find at least one surviving victim of the original invasion. And donât forget at least a couple survived witnesses of that invasion!
Good luck in your search.
No.
Crimes committed by criminals against people. And it doesnât freaking matter were they Amarr or Minmatar.
You went to Republic before war started and captured some people as slaves? Youâre a criminal.
You invaded into Empire and kidnapped some slavers to âreleaseâ them in Republic? Youâre a criminal.
âAmarrâ or âMinmatarâ cannot be judged.
Only people who did commit the crime themselves can be judged.
Fine. Whom did you want to bring to responsibility for that? Who was the Emperor at that time? Who were admirals? Soldiers?.. Ehh, at least bring someone who is still alive to answer, before that itâs just empty ranting.
Speaking about initially enslaved during the original invasion - Empress Jamyl I released their descendants in YC110.
Surprise!
And R.T.F. history manuals.
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Actually, it does. If it were Amarr committing crimes against the Amarr, then thereâd be no need for CONCORD to conduct the trials. So the salient point in this is that the crimes are being committed against another nation or its people.
According to Amarr law, the descendants of criminals are legally culpable for the crimes of their ancestors. So they donât need to still be alive, they just need to have ancestors who were involved.
Also not true! Jamyl emancipated slaves of the 9th generation and later. Yet this was not the majority of enslaved Matari. So either a)the vast majority of the Matari slaves in the Empire were taken after the Rebellion, or b)the vast majority of the descendants of the Day of Darkness who remained enslaved had passed through less than 9 generations. Given lifespans in the time period in question, (b) is entirely possible. Remember, Idonis Ardishapur, the Heir who ordered the destruction of Starkman Prime nearly 500 years ago, only died 13 years ago after the ascension of Doriam IIâand that, only because he killed himself.
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That is⌠interesting.
Well, good luck in finding 900-year old slaves. Maybe âevil Amarrâ are hiding them from you under their beds? Have you checked there?
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