Add additional trade skill to raise max open orders x 64 per level

game-mechanics

(Strife Junior) #1

I searched for this request but didn’t see it, so thought I’d throw this out there for widespread internet spaceship pew pew game opinions… and perhaps even an answer from a dev :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Now that players can have their own markets, and since market order limits haven’t been visited in many years I would like to suggest that CCP add a new Trade skill (name of skill is open to suggestions) that raises the limit of active orders by 64 per level, giving a new max open order limit of 625 for a max skilled toon.

I’ve often run into situations over the years where I’m maxed out on open orders on multiple toons and I’ve dealt with it because there was little advantage to having more than 305 orders on a toon with NPC markets, but now that player markets have opened up a whole new style of gameplay for marketers, I’m hitting my max limit pretty much constantly. An additional skill to raise the limit to 625 would double current marketers capacity for market orders and allow for even more interesting gameplay using player markets in New Eden. And 64 per level is the natural progression of the 4, 8, 16 and 32 per level raising of the current Trade skills.

The current alternative is to just train up additional toons, of course, which I know CCP probably loves, of course, which is part and parcel why I’ve never brought this up before now, of course. lol. But, this seems like it now fits as a natural progression of feature parity with the introduction of player markets, so figured I’d throw it against the hull and see if it sticks!

Anyone else running into this problem, or is it just me?

PROS

  1. Smaller corporations and individual marketers will have more capacity to trade in player owned markets
  2. Corporations and alliances that own their own market(s) will have more capacity to stock those markets for their alliance and corporation members (low and nullsec primarily)

CONS

  1. The goons (and other large alliances) will have additional capacity for more market presence in the NPC hubs.

Any downsides players can envision for expanding the Trade skills and raising the limit of active orders that I’m just not thinking about in making this request?

Thanks and sorry if this has been raised and/or answered before and I just didn’t find it in my search. Surely I’m not the first lol… but my search foo is failing me in the new forums, almost as badly as it did in the old ones.


Trade Skills - Increase Number of Available Market Orders
(Krysenth) #2

It’s just more time effective to train a second character. At minimum, you’re looking at an x8 or higher multiplier for training it, so 2m+ skill points.

Also, what feature parity are you even talking about? Order capacity has nothing to reach parity WITH. It’s a universal limit regardless of where the orders are at.


(Steve Ronuken) #3

It’s part and parcel.

Just for reference.


(Frostys Virpio) #4

Care to explain in more details what you mean by that?


(Strife Junior) #5

To reach 305 orders it currently takes 3,328,000 SP on a fresh toon. Also, you’d get more open orders quicker with a new x 64 skill than you will training a fresh toon.

Sorry I wasn’t very clear on that… the parity would be with the new feature of player owned markets, for the reasons I stated prior (new gameplay for marketers (many more new trade routes than before player owned markets was a feature), increased capacity for player/alliance owned markets (for stocking their market for their corporation and/or alliance m8s), etc.).

I understand the limit is universal, which is why I mentioned that the downside is the goons, et al will have an even larger potential presence in market hubs (where, lets face it, they already dominate anyway). The parity comes merely from the fact that player owned markets brings with it more demand for more open orders in more places at the same time.


(Strife Junior) #6

Noted. Thanks!


(Frostys Virpio) #7

Why is that listed as a downside?

This only mean you have to make meaningful choices of where you list your items.


(Strife Junior) #8

For the same reason monopolizing any market in real life is not favorable… it stifles competition and permits price fixing. Which, if you’re a goon or with one of the other super alliances is not a downside at all. If you’re the rest of the players in the game, however, it is. Simply a matter of perspective, I’d agree.

Everything in Eve is about meaningful choices. Raising the open order limit, for those that spend their time trading in Eve and want to purchase and train the skill, merely increases the number of meaningful choices that can be made.

It is precisely because there are more meaningful choices to be made in trading than there had been prior to player owned markets, marking the need for additional open orders to meet the new demand.


(Frostys Virpio) #9

The more order you can list yourself, the less choice you have to make since you can cover more options anyway.


(Strife Junior) #10

How does it follow that having more options means making less choices?


(Frostys Virpio) #11

You have more choice but less meaningful ones. If I can only list 500 items instead of 1000, I have to choose what I will list more carefully.


(Strife Junior) #12

If the number of meaningful choices to be made has doubled (which it has) but your capacity does not keep up with this new demand (which it hasn’t) then you currently have to make even more careful choices than you did prior to the change.

Hence why the parity has changed and why I suggested the Trade skills keep pace. I’m not asking to increase the number of open orders for the sake of increasing the number of open orders… I’m asking for increased capacity to meet the increased demand.

You seem to keep ignoring the increased demand part of the equation in your responses. If the demand had not increased, then I would not be here requesting this enhancement.


(Cindy the Sewer) #13

While im not against your idea, nor do i support it. I would like to clarify that i believe your understanding of how large alliances manipulate markets is completely wrong.

I am in frequent contact with the main buyer/seller of a huge alliance (the person is entrusted with at least 1 trillion (probably much more but i cannot ask them such a question without that person violating their job description) but i know from talking with them that 1 trillion is at least how much ISK they control. This person makes huge buy/sell orders in jita but not large numbers of buy/sell orders. I’m guessing that they could do their job equally well with as little as 64 buy / sell order capability as they could with 625 because again they make large buy/sells not a lot of buy/sells.

As for the rest of the alliance they seem more occupied with local market dynamics and isk making than bothering much with Jita or any other highsec markets. I know that the general members of this particular alliance do buy and sell sometimes large quantities of items from Jita or elsewhere but again it usually isnt a lot of orders just huge orders.

Of course given the size of that alliance im sure there are true marketeers among their numbers that would love the increase but these people dont represent the vast majority of the players in that alliance but rather a relative few.


(Strife Junior) #14

Everything you’ve stated appears to be wild speculation based on second-hand knowledge of a single example.

Given the data gleaned from recent Eve economic reports, the large alliances have exports in multiple trillions every month. A large chunk of that is, of course, the materials they collect and dump on the market (those large orders you speak of, which, by the way, is market manipulation at its finest).

The rest I can only speculate on as there isn’t enough data points in the reports we’re provided to narrow it down specifically, but suffice it to say their production numbers would indicate they’re exporting more than just materials. (exports - materials gathered != 0)

So, unless you can provide concrete data points that conflict with the numbers derived from the economic reports, then I’m afraid I’m going to have to base my understanding on those reports instead.

And, well, yeah… also on over a decade of working with some of the largest alliances in the game and knowing how they manipulate the markets in various ways. I mean, unless you think Hulkageddon was just about blowing up hulks, or blowing up freighters as they enter Jita is just about blowing up freighters, or collaborative, repeated ganking of ice miners is just for kicks, or hoarding all the resources (moon goo typically) to limit supply and increase demand is just about being conservative with your materials.


(zluq zabaa) #15

Gave me a bit of a chuckle.

Anyhow, I think you are both wrong and right. Let me correct you: the market is nothing but manipulation at any level. There is no “natural” worth of item X for the average value of Y, neither in EVE nor in the real world. Any subsection of the market that is currently played solely by 0.01-ISKers is either just waiting to be manipulated properly or borderline meaningless.

To the topic:

The idea to raise max open orders doesn’t seem reasonable for me. Taking care of 625 different orders could easily become unpractical especially if you put them on as many different items. I wouldn’t count it as a downside though - just because it is impractical for some, doesn’t mean others wouldn’t use it.

Also, there are probably cases like stocking markets in Fortizars or elsewhere, in which you’d want to be able to setup more orders than the current limit allows for. OP, what are the other usecases you see, practically speaking?


(Strife Junior) #16

I’m glad you found that funny. At least I identified what I know can only be speculation and why, unlike the pilot I was responding to. Taken out of context by quote mining doesn’t equate to a fallacy on the part of the OP.

Sigh. It really would help if people would actually read a thread before taking it upon themselves to ‘correct’ others comments ten responses later. Especially when the something you’re trying to correct is nothing I’ve said or even eluded to. But, ok, I’ll explain it again…

The manipulation argument stems from the fact that if the order limit was raised it would allow those who already have a grip on markets to manipulate them even more than they can now. At no point did I ever indicate that markets should not be or are not naturally manipulated. I did state at one point that monopolizing a market has unfavorable consequences, but that’s neither here nor there.

As brought up in the original post. Again, reading the thread helps tremendously with furthering a conversation.


(zluq zabaa) #17

That’s why I asked you to name a few more advantages you see. Stocking non-challenged markets obviously might become more likely, as you don’t have to withdraw orders from elsewhere. And yes, more orders equals more opportunity for cornering a market (for everyone though).

Both these things I don’t care enough about to be for or against them. So any other advantages that do more than cause a tiny tickle?

Introducing your proposal might result in a few less active accounts, as you will surely realize. So this would be a pretty big contra.


(Cindy the Sewer) #18
  1. I never stated anywhere that i believe that materials is all that people buy and sell in highsec markets that is something YOU said and therefore i have no need to defend your point as if it was my own, since it isnt.

  2. Your basing your opinion on a document you say you cannot even understand enough to make a definitive statement about its relevance but intend to rely on our lack of applicable understanding of the report as better than my knowledge of how members that i come in contact with market their goods and by supplies or finished goods. I must say while my opinion certainly is speculative yours seems completely irrelevant given you knowledge of how the report works.

This rambling pointless statement isnt relevant to what i said and i’ll leave it there.


(Strife Junior) #19

Lol. That’s not what I said at all… I said there were not enough data points in the reports to make definitive judgments about what, besides materials, are being exported by the null alliances. It’s not a matter of understanding what the data points available in the reports have to say.

Sigh. Seriously? That is your takeaway? Right, well it’s clear then that you lack the ability to comprehend simple discussions on this topic. I suspect you have zero understanding of how things actually work in Eve since you a) didn’t read the reports for yourself and b) don’t understand what the reports say and how I arrived at discussing materials as one of the large exports that null alliances dominate.

Not relevant eh?. You provide a single example of a single individual that you happen to know who might happen to do things a certain way and you equate this to being how everyone does it. I am countering that blanket statement with my experience understanding the many ways, aside from large orders (stated earlier), that the large alliances can and do manipulate the markets to their benefit.

Again, provide me some concrete evidence that more than one guy you know does things the same exact way all of the time and I’ll concede your points. Until then, you have nothing to add to this conversation except conjecture and assumptions. Well, and now snark.


(Strife Junior) #20

I have already stated the main advantages I see. I could probably sit down and brainstorm a few more potential advantages to expanding the order limit, but the three major ones have already been identified and I’m satisfied with those being enough to warrant consideration of this feature request by CCP.

From the OP:

So, again, all you have to do is read.