I too agree the gender option should merely be for body shape starting template purpose and nothing more.
What is the problem here? Gender is not displayed anywhere to other players, so you are free to claim you are woman, man, none, both or unknown.
It is not the point here. If you choose a gender you are artificially locked out of the half garments, apparel, and mods available out there.
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Oh okay I understand now.
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Keep your politics out of the game. Period. Youāre not just bringing gender politics in, youāre outright naming and shaming based on their disagreements with the premise of your argument.
You come in here clearly having no concept of just what would be involved in implementing your request. By the way, Itās -not- actually as easy as you make it sound.
Thisā¦ is not how ANY of this worksā¦
Okay? So? You neither have the data, nor server stats to even remotely prove the size of said player base. To be quite honest, THEY ARE PART OF THE PLAYER BASE. PEROID. Whether theyāre queer or not should be irrelevant to enjoying the game.
If you donāt like someone because of their politics, donāt play with them. But I highly doubt there is going to be a mass exodus of players because they donāt have a non-binary option for their character customization.
overlap the autogenerated feature pool? What does that even mean? Because it sounds like pseduo code talk for āHey this should be super easy to do so do itā.
Friend, this is not in any way shape or form, even remotely accomplished by any method youāve set forth.
Yeahā¦ Excactlyā¦ Keep the political witch hunting out of games. Period.
Literally everything you just explained as capabilities in the game, have absolutely ZERO to do with the requirements you demand. making calculations based on X, Y, and Z combat stats have absolutely ZERO to do with how skinned mesh models function in terms of attachments, bone structure, or literally ANYTHING to do with your character Avatar, or the actual technology required to manipulate it.
Lets talk money. CASH MONEY. As in the method of exchange used by CCP to pay their employees. The method of exchange used by you to sub an account. Features cost money. Features cost TIME. Time is Money. These equivalent values and mediums of exchange are fairly straightforward.
What is not straightforward, is the -actual- time and technical details involved in implementing what youāre asking for at a Character Avatar design level. Without taking the time to fully explicitly explain in detail how and why itās not that simpleā¦ I assure you, itās not as easy as you and others attempt to make it out.
There are Male Character models
There are Female Character models.
There is Male apparel
There is Female apparel.
This is due to the base level bone hierarchy difference between a Male and Female 3D model. The skinned mesh of a piece of clothing, is specifically tailored to a male or female bone structure. I assure you, trying to āautogenerateā a fit of one to another will have incredibly stupid looking consequences. I say stupid in the sense that IT LITERALLY WOULDN"T LOOK RIGHT. The polygon stretching on a piece of clothing would be grossly incorrect because it was designed for a different bone structure.
I mean this with no disrespect, but for someone to say Itās just as easy to skin a ship as it is to skin a character modelā¦ Has very little concept of just -how- assets in games are designed, created, and assembled.
Alsoā¦ The Bald head hat thingā¦ Is mainly because hair styles are a FKIN NIGHTMARE when it comes to trying to make any specific hairstyle work with a hat model in such a way that the hair isnāt completely poking through every surface of the hat object. Simply put, itās easier to make someone bald if they want to wear a hat, than it is to try and modify -every-single-hair-model- object to fit with -every-single-hat-model- object without poke through.
Take the number of hair objects, times the number of hat objects, times the number of male or female variationsā¦ And the number you reach is the minimum number of -specific- hat/hair combinations that an artist would need to manually alter such that a hat looks nice without poke through.
This is literally just for hats.
Now take that same formula, and input clothing objects. Then multiply that by both male and female variations requiredā¦ And you literally have HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of possible combinations necessary for an artist to ACTUALLY MANUALLY MODIFY.
With all due respect, you have -no- idea how much time and effort is involved in doing what you think is āSimpleā.
CCP isnāt going to go bankrupt paying their artists to implement the ability for a guy to wear a dressā¦
ā¦ or this.
Out of literally everything CCP could spend development money onā¦ This is rightfully not on the list. Because the -actual- majority of the player baseā¦ doesnāt actually give a damn that their Male pilot canāt wear a skirt and high heels for an avatar picture that generally covers chest up.
Theyād rather CCP spend that money implementing Angel Cartel Capitals.
Keep the politics out of games.
Period.
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So kilts are out of picture, eh? As are thawbs? Or hakamas?
And Amarrian men would certainly would like to have an option to wear a cassock 
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I knowā¦ Sadly we are unable to wear Kilts. Such a shame.
I think Iād look pretty badass wearing a kilt and ā ā ā ā stomper boots
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If I get the ability to wear hats and not shave my hair, I am all for everything you propose. Any kind of character modification, button, slider, etc. I want more character customization. That is my point. CCP is the final arbiter.
I DONāT WANT TO SHAVE MY HEAD AND WEAR A HAT LOL
I can wear a hat in tf2 just fine and that game.
Welcome to the internet? Donāt know what to say if anyone sane thinks the internet is a kind inclusive place? Source? (Every multiplayer videogame created in human history) Considering thatās the only point you quote me surely means we agree on the vast majority of my statements or you didnāt bother to respond back.
You forget, this game has very sinister undertones like Warhammer 40k. The ruthless win. The strong win. There are no safe spaces in EVE online. People WILL kick your sandcastle down. Playing the victim card is a really weak argument.
You started a topic that is very political. Willing to debate and be reasonable. I stuck to in game terms only. I discussed the many considerations CCP makes when diving into a very controversial topic.
I think I was pretty darn moderate in my replys.
Debate is a two-way street.
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This tbh ^
Also this ^
Also also this ^
[MANLY MEN WEAR KILTS]
CCPlease can men have kilts to wear?
Letās see if it works
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Wow did this thread ever spiral into silly territory.
Its the far future of whatever year this is and Iām a near-immortal vat baby. Let me wear whatever and style my hair however. Its really no skin off of anyones caboose.
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It is off the caboose of artists that implement it.
That dread is real. I assure you. hahaha
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tbh, it started in silly territory.
Irony much? The alphabet community has a reputation of destroying franchises; itās not too much of a stretch to consider why youād get pushback when desiring to bring that into spaces that have existed without that influence.
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This, to me, is the purview of people who dont have enough real problems to keep themselves occupied.
āOh no! My cartoon fantasyland space game is letting people create more diverse character avatars :((((((( now everything is ruinedā
Just not something i can get worked up over, yknow? On the flipside, there are some hairstyles that i would very much like to have available for my avatars. Iām only seeing winners here
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If anything itās the opposite. People say no, and the other side goes REEE.
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Just to be clear, Iām not targeting you, I have enjoyed your replies and donāt think anything you have said has been out of line. I am making reference to others, including others in similar threads in the hopes they come here, and I tried to be very clear about that. Iām just having a slight dig at others who werenāt there to debate, but to enforce.
Also I really liked the idea from whoever mentioned starting a queer mercenary corp that hunts bigots, that would be absolutely hilarious, and worth investing in at some point when I have sorted out my space life enough to start a new and foreverish project.
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Im not the one with thin skin, Iām fine tbh. What Iām saying is, to my friends that donāt have thick skin, Iām not really going to just say āToughen upā. I just sit that one out.
There is a lot to reply to in this whole thing and I dont have time to go through it all, as previously said, I agree with basically all you say
Ok, this line was literally just parodying other people who have said things like ākeep the politics out of games, this is a place people go to in order to relax and get away from thatā which I think you have mentioned but less in an argumentative way as was on previous threads. The point of this is to say (and again, not to you, the use of āyourā in this quote is generalised) āThe people on the other side have the same feelings as you, they are here to relax, but sometimes your version of relaxing and keeping things the way they should be (in your perspective), contradicts what the other side wants in order to achieve that same stateā. Iām sorry my smartassery has come across too literal, I am very guilty of heavily veiling rhetoric with the intention of others reading it and learning something, and having it under a reply to you has been confusing for all. Theyāre all just wishy washy words that anyone can say to suit any argument, but doesnāt actually mean anything.
If you read my original suggestion, and all of my arguments, you will notice that I have not pushed anything to do with clothing, because I am aware of polygons. My official position is that I want the easy changes, because I understand the concept of business and money, and I have intended to ādropā the NB option as an afterthought. Itās not an all or nothing thing, CCP can pick and choose what they want, but I KNOW these changes I am speaking of are easy. I have requested makeup options. This does not require a change in polygons, it requires a change in colour and textures, the model of which already exists as a CCP asset on a the female character model. I am asking for HAIRSTYLE changes, and I personally find it hard to believe that the skull shapes are that different between the male and female model that it would look awful, or that reshaping the polygon would really be that difficult.
Now that you are done ranting about something I never said:
Please do not put words in my mouth.
Not responding to everything else because Iām too busy, but yes, I am aware that the NB character would be harder to implement - I guess overlapping the feature pool was moreso around the bone structure of a face, hair, makeup, etc when you press ārandomize lookā, I hadnāt given thought to body structure etc because again, itās not my priority here, I want to push the things that are easy changes, and Iām throwing a bone to the others who want something that CCP would have to work for if they did decide to go through the effort of implementing.
Ok, I think I see what might have happened here, can you let me know how close I am to the mark?
You are a conservative, and you are aware I am not, so you are expecting me to be arguing with you, so even though we are having a normal conversation that hasnāt been emotionally charged from either of our sides, the undertone that a lot of people get emotionally charged about this has been enough for you to think I was implicating you?
Whether you are conservative or not, I donāt care. If you are, I have no problem with you, you arenāt being a genital about it, and I really hope you get your hat hair.
Maybe this will clear things up, I will quote myself in the reply you think that implies you are being in any way rude;
Crappy conservatives (Ie, not you) have basically said a cut an paste version of what I wrote there. I was being clever, and the entire paragraph above it was actually nothing to do with my opinion, it was a parody of an amalgamation of conservative comments in this and the previous thread I have read on this topic. But if I quoted them, I would be including them in the conversation and they would feel compelled to reply, so it was easier to say it to someone I enjoyed having a conversation with, but parodying them in the process, so if they were to read the thread, they would be reading their very own words and argument, just reshaped for the opposite purpose.
Everyone else move along and stop acting like there was a big fight here. Yaāll act like youāve never heard a queer talk about being queer without getting enraged before.
New Eden is not a reflection of the real world, if that needed pointing out.
In fact both devs and players do their best to keep any real world references out of this virtual galaxy.
You, OP, have as much a right to ask for the implementation of real world references of a sexual nature as any other person has for political, cultural and religious references - in other words, and according to EULA/ToS, as well as in many comms and in-game chat channels, no pasaran. If you do not understand why those rules exist, you havenāt been paying attention.
If ever CCP would feel itself put under so much pressure that the original presentation in their 3-D character creator needs a complete overhaul to include some real world present day ideas this would be my advice to them: make all characters look somewhat less human, and more akin to drifters, sleepers or whatever else your imagination comes up with. That makes gender less important, and would still be an acceptable compromise, and perfectly in line with a science fiction story.
P.S. can we have the jukebox and the igb back please ?
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I donāt think a request to expand the selection of items an avatar can wear is necessarily political. The citation of real world political factions is, but the request itself is not.
As was already said by others, I do not think the task would be a simple one. The two models are different and any item that is wearable has to be made two times to be usable by both. That we have apparently identical items in M and F versions that are both given to us for free at the same time in certain events is a pretty strong hint that theyāre not interoperable, or at least that achieving this is not as easy as it sounds.
Furthermore, the game is not real life and the in game factions would have their own take on what was acceptable. Character creation options are limited to enforce a certain flavor to each faction. I could imagine the Amarr wouldnāt be too keen on these extra clothing choices, while I imagine the Gallente would probably think it was a great idea. (I am not a lore expert, though, so I could be wrong.)
The character generator was made a long time ago when almost nobody wanted the option and so it made sense not to put the effort in at the time, but now that a sizable group of folks want those options it might be a good idea to consider adding some here and there where it would be consistent with the in game world as depicted.
I do not personally have a vested interest in whether they do or donāt, but if the proposal was brought to me and I were in a position to decide, I would dedicate a small portion of my development resources to slowly adding these options over time. The whole point of the character creation system is to create something that you personally relate to, whether it is something that reflects who you are or something you want to be or something you idolize. That a sizable group of people feel like they canāt do this would, to me, be a problem. They do add cosmetics from time to time so it doesnāt seem to me like it would be a prohibitively difficult task.
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A simple request of adding more options to the character creator would have been a fair one. The motivation in the original OP was anything but a neutral question, neither were the consecutive replies. So it is a loaded request.
I am convinced that any reference to real world questions have no place in this virtual world. Neutrality is good for business, and for un-polarized harmony within the community that comes here to forget about the real world.
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