Allow all character creation options regardless of gender

I think the character creation system is needlessly limited by gender. It should be a fairly simple update to allow all hairstyles on all genders, and why do men only get lip tone but women get lipstick, with patterns?

I don’t see why it’s necessary to disable the ability for a guy to have hot pink Eyeshadow and thick black eyeliner with a central DRIP (We get one eyeliner option, but it’s labelled as Lash Thickness???). Why can’t guys get access to the only two GOOD mowhawk based hairstyles? Guys get all three of the hairstyles I would use for my butch business lesbian, surely the code isn’t THAT spaghetti that you can’t just add an inherited class, or remove one somewhere to make them all available right?

Why not slap all options as available and give everyone one full character cosmetic rework to allow them to take on the new look they want?

You have a huge queer player base, and from what I’ve seen in voice comms they hide unless someone else is witnessed as being both identified and accepted, I don’t know if they make themselves very heavily known here, and I have seen this particular point being raised in the past, and the ISDs have supposedly ‘removed non constructive posts’, yet somehow left in some completely non constructive posts that are actually very thinly veiled bullying (I’m looking at you ISD Drew), and at a glance it appears it was enough to deter the OP from that thread from posting in it again, but I’m going to go and raise this; Add a non binary option for the non binary people so they feel represented! Assuming you would unclog the hair and makeup limitations first, surely this would just mean that you could simply overlap the autogenerated feature pool of both male and female for the new characters, leaving most of the work as deciding what look to go with for the model in the bloodline selection? Also assuming some of the same arguments are going to come through here, let me slap in a few pre-emptive responses in the hope that posts remain constructive and on topic.

“Keep the woke out of gaming/I don’t want to deal with gender politics here” - You can manage your distance to multiple targets, make on the fly calculations based on their angular velocity, signature radius, and the stats of your ship that you know, while watching for fleet broadcasts and paying attention to voice comms, you can manage there being 3 icons to click on the rare occasion you create a new toon. You aren’t the one who has to code it, you don’t HAVE to pay attention to it, but it means a LOT to the people who want it. Just say you’re a snowflake and are hurt by other people getting things they want and be done with it.

“Use your imagination” - Imagination doesn’t change the gender icon whenever you go to take a new photo in some clothes, or adjust your characters hairstyle. See above about how it makes players feel. I’m not trans, but I have enough trans friends that a non binary option, or a slider between masc and femme in character creation genuinely influences my opinion of the game, developers, and willingness to make purchases (You heard me CCP, cash money! I can afford a lot more than 5 accounts!).

Lets try and keep it civil and constructive. No one loses from this change, and if you’re going to argue that you do, it better be a good argument.

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Alot to unpack here with this topic. I welcome your thoughts.

We still don’t have the ability to wear hats and NOT shave our heads. Like for some reason the game forces you to be bald in order to wear a hat in EVE online. :joy: Only CCP knows why. We have years old POS towers that by all merits should have been removed and delisted from the market. So yes, the code of EVE online is pretty messed up from what I (the player) see.

Well besides the fact to really only determine who is a man/women in this game is by clicking their profile and then seeing the full body image within their profile is a lot of work/clicking. Such a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of EVE online revolves around the profile picture/full body image. (Same reason why WIS was canceled was that it required too many resources to maintain for the small fraction of people who used it)

If I was a CCP executive what would be my return on investment to task X amount of devs to work X amount of hours to code this in, test it, and maintain it for future projects/bugs? Is it worth the risk of diving into this very political issue? Given the backlash we have seen with other corporations?

CCP doesn’t care about the situation of one person. They could not care if you had 20+ omega accounts. Corporations care about things as a whole/averages. This is where the argument gets weak. Only CCP can determine if it’s worth the investment in dev hours/$$$ to implement this.

Noone on this forum can say for sure how big this player base is. Perhaps someone could extrapolate stuff with general statics regarding trans/queer individuals. I am willing to bet money on a small minority of people. WIS is the best example of how CCP implemented something for the benefit of a very very small group and had 0 impact on the game play experiences of the general player base.

I never paid attention to if a person was a man or a women in this game because profile pictures have near 0 impact on the ISK I make and the people I meet. Often men in real life choose to make a women character and vice versa. (It was one of the questions I was asked in that study.) I am very invested in my personal persona of Anthnoy Fat Tony Amico I volunteered in a study about personas and EVE. (It was legit.)

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Just thoughts I have and where I stand on this. I do have lore concerns, but I really do think some mild options such as being gender natural (Stellaris has this) is not too far of a stretch. I also want to draw comparisons with Warhammer 40k as queer/trans people pretty much do not exist in that world. (The God Emperor doesn’t care about what you identify as long as you hate xenos.) One might argue they do not exist in the grim world that is in EVE online. I wonder how trans people would be treated in each of the four empires?

Well besides the fact to really only determine who is a man/women in this game is by clicking their profile

I can tell when I see their face appear in local, the hairstyle is the first giveaway, some bloodlines have recognisable disparities. I dont remember which, but I know there is one that I can’t get to not look like an old man no matter how hard I try, and all the features are fairly gender specific to the point you can’t quite create a woman looking man or a man looking woman, but with some play with the cheek and jawlines you can get close.

If I was a CCP executive what would be my return on investment to task X amount of devs to work X amount of hours to code this in, test it, and maintain it for future projects/bugs? Is it worth the risk of diving into this very political issue?

This is why I try to point out the simple programming points - some of these changes should be easy, and should not be able to produce too many future bugs because they would be using assets that already exist and are already in game, and honestly if they just chose not to mention the gender option in the patch notes, there probably wouldn’t be any backlash because no one would notice. If it drove away any customer, Eve would be a better place, and I personally (as in IRL friends over the years) know several trans people who have quit eve because they don’t have any way to find other queers and risk or have ended up in bigot corps.

CCP doesn’t care about the situation of one person. They could not care if you had 20+ omega accounts. Corporations care about things as a whole/averages.

I am a number and I represent a data point. This isn’t a point to say I’m financially propping up CCP, what I’m saying and hoping this thread will confirm, is that people feel this way. Same reason I have brought up my voice comms experience - in 100% of the voice comms communities I have been in, I give it time, wait till people already like me, and I’ll out myself one way or another, and suddenly a third of the TS or Discord chat, coincidentally the third I had pegged as queer, gets more involved in the chat and some even out themselves too. I myself, out of my own social interest, have been examining the average and given the hit rate, I am prepared to wager space is littered with secret queers, many of which I hope also want an Emo Space Femboy™ toon. I don’t know how CCP is supposed to collect an average of a mostly hiding community though. I dunno, maybe I could find a way to poll out to my greater alliance, but even that is something I’m scared to tag my name on to - I can scout a discord server, my corp, and to some degree my immediate alliance, but asking people if they are LGBT is a risk, and more personal than some would be comfortable with (I would be weirded out if a player I didn’t know polled that to me). What I do know is there are certain ‘pipelines’ we meme about in the queer community, and I feel like the Eve experience has overlap with the ‘Transfemme > Coding’ pipeline. There are also overlaps like Autistic people are more likely to be trans, and this game appeals to a particular type of nerd (I use this word endearingly) - see where I’m going with this?

I never paid attention to if a person was a man or a women in this game because profile pictures have near 0 impact on the ISK I make and the people I meet. Often men in real life choose to make a women character and vice versa.

I generally refer to people as their characters gender when it’s a neut in system, but if I know the person I refer to them by their real life gender, although I think I more often refer to neuts as neutral pronouns by autopilot if there are 25+ in local and I have to compact the view. No one is going to look at a character and be able to tell if they chose Non Binary, but people will, in Eve, generally do one of two things: See the picture and refer to them as a gender according to their masc or fem, or will use male pronouns for every toon they ever see, which is more common in my experience. Whether or not people acknowledge gender shouldn’t affect whether or not I can put eyeshadow on my toons.

One might argue they do not exist in the grim world that is in EVE online. I wonder how trans people would be treated in each of the four empires?

This is interesting. I wonder if, given we spend our entire lives in a pod, it is something that even applies to capsuleers, or if WIS being canon means we actually do exit a pod in our lives (maybe when we are offline?). If I were to hazard a guess, I would say Minmatar would be super trans friendly - it’s probably not too abnormal for them to strap their own preferred genitals together out of junk they had lying around. I feel like Amarr would be less friendly but that’s probably because to me Amarr = S R S. and in my completely fictional headcanon S R S. is like 1 step away from being Nazi’s, and has nothing to do with the actual lore of the game.

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One of the comics showed a a character referring to an alternate character as a “jump clone” … which suggests you’d be able to wear any body you’d like as long as it was connected to your network.

Fat chance of getting anything to change though. Women still can’t wear any shoes other than high heels. This is because the foot shape is raised and it would cost money to model a different foot. Personally, I would have preferred no high heel options if there was only going to be one foot choice.

Also, as strongly as some feel about wanting a change like this so they can feel represented, there are more who don’t want the identity politics represented in their video games. People play games to get away from the world, not have people drag it into their recreational time.

In my understanding, most transgendered people claim to feel like the opposite gender from their birth sex. So just play a character of the opposite sex.

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I’m in. I would also like access to every hairstyle regardless of player race.

My thoughts exactly honestly. Many men play women characters and vice versa.

Or maybe we can get hair on our heads while wearing EVE hats! Costs money and time to model all of that in.

I do not sorry. Pretty much an outsider to the community. Only trans/nonbinary people I know is an FC at WTM and a former WTM officer. Nice people. Would not know the identity beyond their profiles in discord sadly. EVE appeals to a lot of people. I was playing EVE and Warhammer 40k when I was 16 when everyone else played Fortnite/COD. Pretty lonely when it came to gaming choices. But still had plenty of friends on other topics.

You know what, I remember a Minmatar player telling me in help chat people were attacking his citadel solely because he was black. :joy: KID YOU NOT IT IS TRUE. Believe me or not I met a person who said that. Totally not because it was an easy citadel bash. People say wild stuff.

Unrelated to the cosmetics topic but, I will say form a formattable corp, find allies, and wipe those bigots off the face of New Eden! This is the sheer beauty of EVE online. You can be queer, trans, and anything else and still be worth trillions of ISK and gaining the respect of many players. ISK can wipe the bigots from the face of New Eden. ISK doesn’t discriminate. I respect people who have way more ISK than me.

I would even point to the CSM (I know it has its problems) as a way to voice these concerns directly to CCP. I would vote for someone who campaigned on greater character customization.

Someone makes fun of you being trans? Pay a mercs in game to hunt them down and kill their best assets.

I am a Dota 2 veteran. I seen the toxic of the toxic. To quit EVE because someone was a bigot/said mean words is a stretch for me. Get ISK. Get even. Dance on their burning assets. :smiling_imp:

Anyways, I support greater customization. I will bet money that a large majority of everyone also supports that. If and when CCP gets to it, I hope we get to wear hats and have hair at the same time.

Would you be upset if you knew that part of roleplay can get just as toxic as you describe?

Eve Online though the only toxic activity I see is what we refer to scamming.

Outside of scamming there is nothing in New Eden that could even come close to toxic in mind.
Mining Permits etc are toxic outside of roleplay is what I was getting at.

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Wholeheartedly agree. For this reason I offer you an excellent book about how to avoid being scammed in EVE Online. It only costs 1 billion ISK and can save you hundreds of its price by preventing people from scamming you. :wink:

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btw you are the goofy looking duck…

You are just jealous because all your characters look like they have a hard time on the toilet. :stuck_out_tongue: :smiling_imp: :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

That’s not true as we can’t do that inside our Pods, we don’t have walking in stations… remember!

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But you roleplay it nevertheless. :wink:

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I’m guessing capsuleers get fed liquids while they’re in the pod. Not exactly blockage inducing.

Of course, scamming is just people filling up local chat in hopes a fool will come along. Jita has the in game announcer warning that they are not responsible for chat scammers if you listen close enough. :laughing:

Nah I have seen toxic roleplay. Alot of low effort stuff to just annoy people. Rather than a persona built up over time. Things like mining permits/scammers I do perceive as low effort toxic roleplay that is just a meme in the end. I find roleplay with evil intentions so fun. Thus the reason why I am Anthony FatTony Amico in EVE online.

I find it a stretch people quit videogames over what people say over the internet. It’s a weak argument for OP to make in purely debate terms. Do I quit over every toxic game in Dota 2? Or some horrible stuff someone says in voice chat? No! I will probably get even, find a different match, or block them.

Obviously, you should report hate speech in EVE local/in game chats. I just hope people have a ticker skin when it comes to mean words strangers say over an online profile.

I am not very commited to Eve Online and tend to just paddle within a very small part of what is offered.

Sort of just try to interact with what is happening and try to feel a sence of belonging which brings us to this thread topic as it is an actual good request like asking if a male pilot can wear womans cloths or vice versa.

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Yup, can’t wait until CCP allows us to wear hats and not shave our heads. Character customization really needs a good development pass to bring it in line with more features OP suggests. And you know… Wearing a hat and not being bald in this game is nice.

Maybe they need to learn from wrestling games

Are you referring to Intergender Wrestling?

Eww, post hidden. I guess I was wrong, humanity hasn’t solved a lot of mental problems in the EVE future. Proof positive: this forum.

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Unfortunately not everyone has thick skin. Some people come to games like Eve to get away from all the bullying, harassment, invalidation, and exclusion that they experience in the real world. Eve is a place for them to relax and be themselves. Kinda sucks when the conservatives are here complaining on the forums that a button they may never see and/or use may affect their in game experience and ‘bring gender politics into the game’.

Just to take the subtlety out of things, that was definitely a hint that the people pushing ‘keep gender politics out of games’ argument is just saying ‘keep MY gender politics in the game’, and it has become so normalized that even the people that don’t agree with it just sorta roll with it. Obvs this isn’t targeted at you, I just think quoting people while not including them in the conversation is more powerful :wink:

That said, my priority is still just to have gender not restrict makeup and hairstyle options.

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