Allow Capital Ships, Supercarriers, and Titans in Highsec

Then go away…

No, you said logical conclusion…that was YOUR reductio ad absurdum. Merin Ryskin didn’t say that.

…again, she didn’t say that, you did…

Ciao…

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I agree with your assessment of nullsec needing work. It’s not about buffing or nerfing though, it’s about broken and not broken.

The problem with nullsec as I (and I think you) see it, is that it has basically devolved into Capital Ships Online.

  • For fights over territory or structures, capital ships (primarily Titans, Supers, and FAXs) are all that matter. Either you have enough ships to do the job, or you don’t even bother show up. We saw that play out in the latest Goon war up north; the defenders knew they couldn’t win, so they largely surrendered their structures and territory without firing a shot in order to preserve their capital fleet.

  • For roams and “good fights”, the specter of the supercapital umbrella waiting to open on you at a whim looms large. This is a bit better after the cyno changes, but it’s not hard to replace a cyno-fitted bait battleship with a bait battleship paired with a cloaked recon a short ways off.

  • For nullsec mining, why would you use anything other than a Rorqual? Literally every function you need for a mining operation is contained within one ship, and it happens to be a ship with a massive tank and buffer and a perfect invulnerability shield to give reinforcements time to arrive.

I don’t see Dreads and Carriers as much of a problem (which is why I don’t see nearly as much harm being done by giving them partial access to hisec), but Titans, Supers, FAXs, and Rorqs all break the game in some way.

The solution to these problems is to fix them, not have them apply equally everywhere. What you’re basically saying is, “Hey, gameplay in nullsec is shitty, let’s make it shitty in hisec too!” and I don’t actually think you want that.

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Pointing out that existing nullsec blocs will take full advantage of a change like the OP is proposing is not even remotely connected to the idea that all of space should be like nullsec. If anything, it’s highlighting the fact that they both are different (because the nullsec blocs can’t currently use hisec in this way) and should remain different (because she doesn’t think that the nullsec blocs should be able to use hisec in this way).

Your logic is pretty faulty here.

EDIT: Also, if you don’t mind me asking:

Are you trying to suggest that allowing unrestricted access of capital ships to hisec would be an improvement? (Or “buffing it” as the OP would say.)

(Not asking ironically or sarcastically, I’m genuinely curious.)

I have yet to see anyone state conclusively how this would be an improvement. Hell, I have a much more pared down proposal floating around and even I’m not convinced it’s an actual improvement.

EDIT2: I think you answered my question in your reply below…

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So you’re not in favor of the OP’s straight up, unrestricted access of all capital ships into hisec?

Good. Then you should get out of this thread and pop over to mine that’s discussing a much more limited approach.

:wink:

I have to disagree with this on three grounds:

  1. Titans (and I think Supers, but don’t quote me on that, I haven’t looked in a long time) can only be built by an alliance that owns sovereignty over the system they’re in. So, players in hisec aspiring to own a Titan or a Super would still need to contend with actually buying one from one of the nullsec blocs.
  2. Players aspiring to fly/own a Titan or Super in hisec will presumably need somewhere to dock said Titan or Super. Is part of this aspiration also setting up Keepstar where they could eventually house it too? Because that is a lot of aspiration.
  3. Presumably, the “ultimate” end-game content on these ships would be to use things like Doomsdays, Effects generators, Burst Projectors, etc. but I can state with fair certainty that none of these will ever be allowed to be used in hisec. To get the full “end-game content”, you still need to go to losec or nullsec.

These are much less of an issue for other capital ships obviously, but if your motivation is easier access to “end-game content”, then simply allowing Titans and Supers to fly in hisec isn’t nearly enough to satisfy that criteria. You’d also need to change how they’re made, where they can dock, and what modules they can use, and all of those changes (well, at least the first two) would make these ships even more stupidly broken than they already are. Far better in my book to keep them out of hisec because they are already so centrally focused on being built and operated in nullsec.

But seriously, come check out the discussion over in my thread…

Yes, that’s what this proposal is about. Make highsec like nullsec.

Not all content should be available in highsec. Players can already aspire to become capital pilots, just not in high-security space.

Hisec currently does not allow capital ships.

Nullsec currently does allow capital ships.

OP wants to allow capital ships into hisec.

Ergo, OP wants to make hisec more like nullsec.

Not exactly like nullsec, that I’ll grant you, but more like it.

(Also, check out my previous post, I actually put a proper answer there. And apologies for the forum-fu, I haven’t had my coffee yet, LOL!)

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Of course, they will be produced without such restrictions.

Obviously, supers should be allowed to dock in NPC stations, then.

They are just big smartbombs, let carebears use them.

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Ahhh, there’s nothing like the smell of sarcasm in the morning…

:wink:

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That’s only “my logic” if you’re an idiot troll. Do not confuse objection to one particular change with a general policy that nothing can ever be changed. Highsec capitals are bad for a long list of reasons, nullsec abuse is just one specific issue related the OP’s delusions of being able to build a fleet and fight the nullsec powers.

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So you want more than just capital ships in hisec, you want custom content for them too?

Tell me…where else in New Eden is there currently content designed exclusively for capital ships? Level 5 missions may count, but they are plenty do-able in subcaps (or in groups) and they’re only available in losec.

Also…who would bother with using a Titan to do a mission that doesn’t offer outstanding rewards? I agree with you that any sort of PvE content for capital ships must be relatively low-yield in terms of ISK and/or items, but if that’s the case then why would people bother? They’d run Incursions in their blingy battleships to make ISK instead, because if there’s one thing that players value more than “end-game content”, it’s ISK.

I feel like you and I are generally in agreement about the state of nullsec. The whole “N+1”, “Titans Online”, and “F1 Monkey” memes don’t perpetuate for no reason. And if EvE is going to continue to thrive, this absolutely needs to change.

But what is being proposed here wouldn’t fix any of that, it would simply spread it. Hisec wouldn’t become exactly like nullsec obviously, but it would become more like it, and not in a good way. And if you think that people getting to fly around in Titans merrily doing nothing of import in hisec will keep players playing, I think you’re kidding yourself.

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In your case calling you an idiot troll is accurate. You’ve built a straw man argument, and now even when I’ve told you explicitly that I don’t hold the position you claim I hold you’re insisting that you’re still right.

Such as?

  1. More capital proliferation. We already have a problem with capitals dominating everything outside of highsec, the last thing we need to do is bring that to the one remaining area of EVE that doesn’t have it yet.

  2. Less player interaction. The reason the OP wants highsec capitals is because they’re effectively immune to suicide ganking. Combine that with the OP making their corp immune to wars and you have complete ability to opt out of PvP and remove any possible disruption to farming.

  3. Completely broken farming. Highsec content right now is balanced around not having capitals to farm it. Introduce PvE capitals and you either have completely effortless farming of everything in highsec (and no reason to ever fly anything but a capital ship) or you have to vastly increase the difficulty of highsec PvE content to match capital ships and in the process make it impossible to use anything else.

  4. Loss of ability to stop enemy fleet production. Right now the only meaningful limit on capital fleets is the theoretical ability to destroy the stations where they are built and docked. Allowing highsec capitals takes that last remaining limit away, allowing the existing nullsec powers to put their fleet construction into PvP-immune highsec alt corps. This would be a major obstacle to any attempts at fixing nullsec’s capital problem.

And which of those reasons in your long yet imaginary list are unable to be negated by balance changes as part of the implementation?

In theory? None of them. Capitals could be completely redesigned and not be a problem. In practice? All of them. CCP has shown no sign of fixing capitals so that they don’t dominate everything, and you (and farmer trash like you) have already explicitly rejected balancing factors like making them permanently suspect flagged.

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When the content is bad content.

but a lot of the content in nullsec is balanced to allow capital ships without breaking everything.

It really isn’t. Have you honestly not noticed the problems with nullsec farming income? There’s nothing at all balanced about it, and now you want to bring that to highsec where people can farm it 23/7 without having to worry about PvP threats.

Just for the hell of it. The point isn’t to have people able to shower themselves with money, it’s more of an achievement thing.

So you seriously want to make a massive balance change like this just so highsec players can have a meaningless trophy ship? How many people do you think will care about having highsec capitals if they don’t actually do anything useful?

I don’t think that capital combat should really become a viable thing for highsec groups which is why I think that any content added should be group PvE based.

And how exactly do you plan to enforce this PvE-only rule, when capitals have already demonstrated the ability to dominate PvP everywhere they are legal? It doesn’t matter what the content is, as soon as you allow them to exist in highsec they will take over PvP.

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There are limited edition ships doing exactly that.

A completely unprecedented rule that may or may not even be possible to implement? How do you even define “PvP engagement”? Can a capital ship that is attacked by another player defend itself? Can a FAX use remote reps on a player that may at some point be engaged in PvP?

See, now that’s a strawman.

No, it’s almost certainly true. OP has made it very clear that their goal is the removal of highsec PvP and buffs to farming income.

You already have the ability to opt out, and quite rightly so.

No, you’re still vulnerable to suicide ganking right now which maintains the necessary rule of EVE that all space is PvP space. Being able to fly capitals in highsec effectively removes that last remaining way of forcing PvP on someone.

But this is your answer to literally every post. “waah waah farmer trash waah” that’s basically every post you make.

It’s not my fault farmer trash keeps demanding income buffs with less risk and effort. I would love for EVE to be a game where I don’t have to keep saying those things.

And again, you’re ignoring the fact that content could be balanced to prevent it being farmed. Hell, any ratting or missions can be fixed by blocking capitals from using acceleration gates.

If you’re going to block capitals from doing any existing PvE and balance the capital-specific content so that it can’t be farmed then what is the point of highsec capitals? Hardly anyone is going to waste time on content that doesn’t pay better than what they can already farm.

So like where I said above that highsec capitals should be locked to highsec?

So, a completely unprecedented and likely impossible to implement rule that goes directly against the concept of the sandbox? We want to encourage people to leave highsec, not impose limits that literally ban them from doing so.

There we go, problem solved.

“Just do this thing that CCP has shown zero interest in doing, it’s easy.”

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I think this is the greatest downfall of both your position and this proposal.

The current state of affairs in nullsec isn’t because players want it that way, and it’s not because CCP wants it that way, it’s because the smartest players in EvE have an uncanny ability to min/max game mechanics and that process ultimately yields the current metas that we see.

If capital ships are allowed into hisec, the nullsec blocs will absolutely, without a doubt capitalize on that and use it to their advantage. That’s exactly how they ended up ruling swaths of nullsec in the first place: they see openings, the move in to take advantage of them. (And that’s not a knock against them mind you, it’s just strategic thinking.) This whole notion that they’ll just stay in nullsec is demonstrably false considering that they already actively participate in hisec combat on a regular basis. (Miniluv sponsored suicide ganking, proxy wars over trading hubs, perpetual wardecs against nullsec foes, etc.)

Also, it’s worth pointing out that there is no such thing as an exclusively PvE activity in EvE. Any time you are undocked and in space, you are a target and chances are that there is someone wanting to shoot you. With the current state of affairs in hisec, that means that, generally speaking, someone (or some group) wanting to relieve you of your ship has at least some chance of doing so, even if the cost is their own. Even with Dreads and Carriers this dynamic holds since, in terms of EHP, they aren’t really that much tankier than freighters, and freighters die in hisec all the time. But a Titan in hisec? That would be nigh ungankable. And that means that whatever ISK-making activity you’d be doing in hisec, you’d be doing in near absolute safety which goes against everything EvE is supposed to stand for.

At this point the forums are barking at me for replying to you too often, so I’ll leave my thoughts here. I don’t necessarily disagree with your goals, but I highly disagree with your means of achieving them.

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I’d like to see this all happen but they also need to add anti-capital sentry guns on every station and gate as well as anti-capital CONCORD response fleets.

Who wouldn’t want to see CONCORD drop a titan and gang of dreads on someone’s capital ship in highsec would be epic and proper for having capital in high sec should also mean equal response for CONCORD to deal with capitals too.

Someone in the thread mentioning a special Concord titan that shows up and kills you if you get criminal flagged in a capital, I’m in favor. The guns really are not needed, concord guarantees a kill after a certain amount of time, and I doubt that capitals will be used for ganking, if they are then concord can kill them without needing improved guns. However if better sentry guns is what is needed for balance, I have no objections.

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