Allow Capital Ships, Supercarriers, and Titans in Highsec

[Daoden]

I never want to fly a titan or a super carrier nor will i ever want to. If anything they need to be brought down to the level of only usefull in large battles and attacking stations, just like the rorq should be a booster and ore compressor.

[Bronson_Hughes]

@Sabus_Narian

No.

No no no no.

On the “No” scale of one to ten, this is somewhere upwards of a million.

Not being able to dock in NPC stations is one of the few things that keeps Titans and Supers in check. Removing that limit would remove any motivation from the game to fly anything other than them.

Problem is nullsec has keepstars in plenty, some even have keepstars in every single system. Either remove them from the game, or allow the entire game to use them, and make them the endgame ship everyone wants to get into.

Those Keepstars took considerable resources to build, considerable coordination to deploy, and considerable effort to defend.

I fail to see why nullsec Keepstars are any sort of motivation for breaking hisec.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Sabus_Narian

or allow the entire game to use them

Everyone can use them, just not in highsec.

[Wander_Prian]

Feel free to build your own keepstar in highsec.

[Bernie_Nator]

No, no, that can get wardecced, and he doesnt want that. That’s just too much risk.

[Wander_Prian]

Oh I’m well aware of his risk-aversion.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Daoden

I never want to fly a titan or a super carrier nor will i ever want to. If anything they need to be brought down to the level of only usefull in large battles and attacking stations, just like the rorq should be a booster and ore compressor.

Seriously, bring caps into high would end up the same way as the brain dead mining changes they made to Orca and Rorq.

[Sabus_Narian]

Those Keepstars took considerable resources to build, considerable coordination to deploy, and considerable effort to defend.

I fail to see why nullsec Keepstars are any sort of motivation for breaking hisec.

Way things are currently, nullsec is broken. You either nerf nullsec or buff the rest of the game areas to compensate.

[Runa_Yamaguchi]

You are not entitled to walk into Null and be handed what you want…

[Bernie_Nator]

If only you could take that corp of 1000 people into nullsec and carve out space for yourself.

Wait.

That takes effort.

My bad.

[Runa_Yamaguchi]

@Bernie_Nator

f only you could take that corp of 1000 people

…sadly 700 people quit…I mean alts…were moved out of that great(sic) corp recently…lol…what a scam…

[Bernie_Nator]

You’d think their alliance could help them take space!

Oh. Right. They were removed from it.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Sabus_Narian

Way things are currently, nullsec is broken. You either nerf nullsec or buff the rest of the game areas to compensate.

And you honestly think that the existing nullsec powers wouldn’t exploit your proposal to build up even more ovewhelming fleets?

[Runa_Yamaguchi]

@Lucas_Kell

Doesn’t sound like a great game to me.

Then go away…

[Runa_Yamaguchi]

@Lucas_Kell

some pillock wants

No, you said logical conclusion…that was YOUR reductio ad absurdum. Merin Ryskin didn’t say that.

[Runa_Yamaguchi]

@Lucas_Kell

that nothing should ever be improved outside of nullsec

…again, she didn’t say that, you did…

Ciao…

[Bronson_Hughes]

@Sabus_Narian

Way things are currently, nullsec is broken. You either nerf nullsec or buff the rest of the game areas to compensate.

I agree with your assessment of nullsec needing work. It’s not about buffing or nerfing though, it’s about broken and not broken.

The problem with nullsec as I (and I think you) see it, is that it has basically devolved into Capital Ships Online.

• For fights over territory or structures, capital ships (primarily Titans, Supers, and FAXs) are all that matter. Either you have enough ships to do the job, or you don’t even bother show up. We saw that play out in the latest Goon war up north; the defenders knew they couldn’t win, so they largely surrendered their structures and territory without firing a shot in order to preserve their capital fleet.

• For roams and “good fights”, the specter of the supercapital umbrella waiting to open on you at a whim looms large. This is a bit better after the cyno changes, but it’s not hard to replace a cyno-fitted bait battleship with a bait battleship paired with a cloaked recon a short ways off.

• For nullsec mining, why would you use anything other than a Rorqual? Literally every function you need for a mining operation is contained within one ship, and it happens to be a ship with a massive tank and buffer and a perfect invulnerability shield to give reinforcements time to arrive.

I don’t see Dreads and Carriers as much of a problem (which is why I don’t see nearly as much harm being done by giving them partial access to hisec), but Titans, Supers, FAXs, and Rorqs all break the game in some way.

The solution to these problems is to fix them, not have them apply equally everywhere. What you’re basically saying is, “Hey, gameplay in nullsec is shitty, let’s make it shitty in hisec too!” and I don’t actually think you want that.

[Bronson_Hughes]

@Lucas_Kell

@Merin_Ryskin

And you honestly think that the existing nullsec powers wouldn’t exploit your proposal to build up even more ovewhelming fleets?

Taking that logic to it’s eventual conclusion, nullsec should be the only space that exists and it should be entirely run by a handful of super coalitions who only fight when they agree between them to do so. Doesn’t sound like a great game to me.

Pointing out that existing nullsec blocs will take full advantage of a change like the OP is proposing is not even remotely connected to the idea that all of space should be like nullsec. If anything, it’s highlighting the fact that they both are different (because the nullsec blocs can’t currently use hisec in this way) and should remain different (because she doesn’t think that the nullsec blocs should be able to use hisec in this way).

Your logic is pretty faulty here.

EDIT: Also, if you don’t mind me asking:

@Lucas_Kell

…nothing should ever be improved outside of nullsec…

Are you trying to suggest that allowing unrestricted access of capital ships to hisec would be an improvement? (Or “buffing it” as the OP would say.)

(Not asking ironically or sarcastically, I’m genuinely curious.)

I have yet to see anyone state conclusively how this would be an improvement. Hell, I have a much more pared down proposal floating around and even I’m not convinced it’s an actual improvement.

EDIT2: I think you answered my question in your reply below…

[Bronson_Hughes]

@Lucas_Kell

@Bronson_Hughes

Are you trying to suggest that allowing unrestricted access of capital ships to hisec would be an improvement? (Or “buffing it” as the OP would say.)

I think that if they were added carefully and in a balanced way that they would be good for the game, yes. I think they would give highsec players something bigger to aspire towards. Understandably they’d have to be restricted in use to stop capitals just being the answer to everything, but that could be easily done.

As an example, they could have it so that any capital engaging in capsuleer combat becomes suspect flagged and a warpable beacon drops on them, and could restrict mining yield on rorquals, using the NPC highsec owners as a reason.

So you’re not in favor of the OP’s straight up, unrestricted access of all capital ships into hisec?

Good. Then you should get out of this thread and pop over to mine that’s discussing a much more limited approach.

@Lucas_Kell

@Bronson_Hughes

I have yet to see anyone state conclusively how this would be an improvement.

Even if they did nothing other than look shiny and were trapped in highsec, that would be an improvement purely because it gives highsec players incredibly large projects to work towards. I think giving people more things to aspire towards helps drive content.

I have to disagree with this on three grounds:

1. Titans (and I think Supers, but don’t quote me on that, I haven’t looked in a long time) can only be built by an alliance that owns sovereignty over the system they’re in. So, players in hisec aspiring to own a Titan or a Super would still need to contend with actually buying one from one of the nullsec blocs.
2. Players aspiring to fly/own a Titan or Super in hisec will presumably need somewhere to dock said Titan or Super. Is part of this aspiration also setting up Keepstar where they could eventually house it too? Because that is a lot of aspiration.
3. Presumably, the “ultimate” end-game content on these ships would be to use things like Doomsdays, Effects generators, Burst Projectors, etc. but I can state with fair certainty that none of these will ever be allowed to be used in hisec. To get the full “end-game content”, you still need to go to losec or nullsec.

These are much less of an issue for other capital ships obviously, but if your motivation is easier access to “end-game content”, then simply allowing Titans and Supers to fly in hisec isn’t nearly enough to satisfy that criteria. You’d also need to change how they’re made, where they can dock, and what modules they can use, and all of those changes (well, at least the first two) would make these ships even more stupidly broken than they already are. Far better in my book to keep them out of hisec because they are already so centrally focused on being built and operated in nullsec.

But seriously, come check out the discussion over in my thread…

[Ugren_Okaski]

@Lucas_Kell

Taking that logic to it’s eventual conclusion, nullsec should be the only space that exists

Yes, that’s what this proposal is about. Make highsec like nullsec.