Actually, under the right circumstances, Id be fine with letting dreads in. But Carriers have too broad a utility to let in, let alone Supercarriers. The ability to apply great damage at a 1000km range and instalock most sub-cap ships, as well as almost instalocking even frigates and destroyers, is too stupidly strong.
I agree. Unfortunately, the OP suggests that it is easy for someone to spend $4000 on the game and get the ISK needed to inject and fly a Supercarrier, and therefore anyone can rival a large bloc. As long as they spend enough money.
For anyone who wants a summary of the discussion, here it is.
@Sabus_Narian wants almost all the benefits of Nullsec, into Hisec, without any of the risks.
He is proposing that:
Supercarriers should be allowed to roam freely and be used by Wardec corporations to make the single-sided wardecs even more unbearable by having gatecamping supers sit 1000km off the gate, and pick off wardec targets in total safety.
Rorquals should be allowed to mine freely in Hiisec, stripping all the belts in every system so that Hisec becomes the new Delve, except worse, because every region in hisec will be like Delve, and the market will be flooded by minerals, making it completely useless to mine for anyone not using a rorqual.
Dont like a group of 20 rorquals stripping the entire region of Essence every day? Dont worry. You can gank them. All it takes is a couple hundred players. Thats all. Easy.
Alternatively, you could also trick them into going suspect or concording themselves. Again, easy. Weve all made that mistake before. You just need to trick them into doing it again. And again. And again. And 10 more times for the 10 other rorquals.
Think this is harmful to new and casual players? Of course not. New players can just buy more Plex using real money and inject and purchase supers. Just spend $1000, or $2000, or $4000. Easy. What are you, poor?
With Carriers and Supers, the one thing that Iâve always felt makes them unbalanced isnât their damage, application, locking range, or even their locking speed. Fighters take time to travel those distances, even with MWDs, giving smaller ships a chance to warp off. No, what breaks them is their ability to tackle ships at those absurd ranges using support fighters.
With a single carrier this isnât much of an issue since you need to give up 1/3 of your DPS to tackle anything at range. But with groups of carriers (or a single Super because you have more fighters available), it becomes a real balance issue.
So, with the understanding that Carriers and Supers need to be tweaked to deal with this uber-utility, Iâd be okay with allowing Carriers only into hisec.
Thanks for emphasizing this.
EDIT: And my specific opposition to Titans, Supers, and Rorqs in hisec is their ability to use certain AoE modules (Doomsdays, EWar Projectors, PANIC, etc.). In Hisec, those would not only be grossly overpowered, but, at least in some cases, would be a nightmare for managing in terms of flags, CONCORD, etc. Iâm all in favor of careless Titan and Super pilots getting CONCORDEDâŚbut the underlying balance there is just too broken to justify âfor lulzâ in my view.
First off, you can set your fighters to orbit objects. Like Gates. This effectively makes the travel time, zero.
Secondly, take a look at the the past Carrier gatecamp videos, like this one:
Granted, I believe fighters have been nerfed slightly to make them harder to track smaller targets, though this could only be for heavy fighters, and light and support fighters which are designed to take down small targets could be unchanged, just look at how fast they are taking down frigates and cruisers.
This isnt a problem of tackling, as many of these cruisers are being taken down in one, two hits. With align time, especially for larger ships, a lack of warp disruption is not going to be a major issue if youre being killed in 3 seconds.
Rorqs in hisec is never going to be a good idea. The only thing holding Delve back from making every other region looking like a slim slice of cheese on the MER is the constant AFK cloaky camping and attacks. Hisec would gauruntee a bunch of AFK rorquals stripping the belts clear every day. Even without PANIC, its a terrible, terrible idea, because of the inheret ease at which mining can be done in hisec.
Thatâs an interesting case, but it still relies on using one fighter wing to tackle. Powerful to be sure, but limited. There are lots of fits/doctrines that can easily and quickly blap single subcaps with relative ease and safety (arties anyone?) but they arenât banned from hisec because of it.
Fair point about setting the fighters to orbit a gate and hang out there though. Couple that with the carrierâs massive lock range andâŚyeah⌠That definitely needs to be addressed.
I see the fighters anti-ship torpedoes doing a ton of damage to frigates and cruisers in that video, and it seems like itâs this damage thatâs allowing the quick kills. Maybe tweak the application of these torps to smaller ships? But at this point, weâre getting into a whole other topic.
All that aside, I think weâre in agreement: before thinking about letting carriers into hisec, theyâd need to be seriously looked at.
I think weâre in agreement here. I mentioned PANIC in particular from a game mechanics standpoint, but balance-wise they would just break everything in terms of raw mining capacity and safety.
because the status quo is that everything in hisec is gankable.
Supers can be ganked, get 200-300 taloses and you can do it, less if the fit is not good. Your issue is that it is not âeasyâ, my response is toughen up and batphone your friends to gank them, you wonât be able to do it solo.
So you agree that it had nothing to do with Casual PVE players.
No it has, a casual PVE player who joins a corp is not a casual PVE player now?
So it takes 495 billion isk, to take down a target worth 32 billion isk.
Firstly no one ganks with smartbombers, you use catalyst or talos. Secondly its optional, if you want to gank, then yes you need to pay the isk, whatâs the problem?
Yes I do want to buff Highsec, do you have a problem with that?
Still doesnt change the fact that its unbalanced.
Nullsec empires are unbalanced, especially the big coalition blocks. Do we need to go destroying them? Players make the game unbalanced, the fair thing to do is give everyone an equal chance to compete, and the best wins.
I guess you never heard of Burn Jita before? Where people do kill the most difficult to kill, of jita?
Indeed I have, and the 200+ destroyer fleets that goons field puts a dent in your claim that 200+ gankers are rare in highsec.
And that, therefore, your idea does nothing but hurt the vast vast majority of new players?
Tell me how capital ships hurt new players so long as they do not flag themselves, which they wonât if they keep safety green?
Iâd be okay with allowing Carriers only into hisec.
While its not the full support of my position, Iâm glad to see some who would take this thread seriously and discuss the points, even if he does not agree with all of them.
And my specific opposition to Titans, Supers, and Rorqs in hisec is their ability to use certain AoE modules
I mentioned several posts up about my acceptance of superweapon bans. I have no problem with giving up Doomsdays, AOE supercarrier weapons, or PANIC modules on the rorqual to help balance their introduction into highsec.
Rorqs in hisec is never going to be a good idea. The only thing holding Delve back from making every other region looking like a slim slice of cheese on the MER is the constant AFK cloaky camping and attacks. Hisec would gauruntee a bunch of AFK rorquals stripping the belts clear every day. Even without PANIC, its a terrible, terrible idea, because of the inheret ease at which mining can be done in hisec.
Remember that highsec asteroid belts are limited, and moon belts take days to spawn, not to mention the increased wars attacking the athanors which cause them to spawn.
All that aside, I think weâre in agreement: before thinking about letting carriers into hisec, theyâd need to be seriously looked at.
Got no problem with a severe nerf to their abilities, so long as its done across the entirety of the game, this would also give sub-cap fleets an added edge in nullsec combat.
I think weâre in agreement here. I mentioned PANIC in particular from a game mechanics standpoint, but balance-wise they would just break everything in terms of raw mining capacity and safety.
Can be balanced by a severe nerf to their mining ability, the ship is designed as a booster not as a miner, to maximize the Rorquals power you want a fleet near you, not just you.
But thats the thing. Everything about a carrier is beyond what most subcap fits are designed to do, despite the fact that those same subcap fits, sacrifice everything else in order to be able to do that one thing that the carrier can do.
Whether you go with tornadoes, insta-lock svipuls, etc, they all sacrifice a large chunk of modules to be able to do what they do. None of them have the EHP in the millions, thats MILLIONS, with only 1 module that essentially allows them to insta-lock anything above a destroyer.
What other subcap ship can effectively deal 100% of its damage from 1000km away?
Can that same ship, do it without sacrificing a single mid or low slot, and dedicate all its mids and lows for full damage and tank?
Because thats what a carrier does. You get full damage application, instalocking, at 1000km away, with full mid and low slots dedicated to damage and tank. Millions of EHP, thousands of DPS.
Is there a single subcap ship that doesnt sacrifice every single one of its module slots that can even begin to remotely come close to what a carrier can do?
Sure, but thats the problem with nerfing carriers. They would have to be nerfed to be on par with everything else in hisec, which begs the question, why bother nerfing a carrier to deal the same damage and have the same EHP as a rattlesnake, when you can just use a rattlesnake instead?
Weve had quite a few threads come up with people proposing a Light carrier, like a battleship-type carrier usable in hisec. But the question that always gets raised is, what are you going to use it for? There are ships that already fill that role. Youre creating a new type of ship, just because it might be cool, or just because you want to fly it. And thats not a good reason to create new types of ships and have devs waste their time and resources on.
And the same goes with carriers. Carriers are either too powerful in hisec and make the game unbalanced, or they are nerfed and are on par with other subcaps making them a useless and meaningless addition to hisec.
I never said âeasyâ. I said âUnreasonableâ. And it is.
Goonswarm, the largest alliance in the game, can barely manage and call in 200 people during Burn Jita. Burn Jita is living proof that your idea is unreasonable and unfeasable.
Oh, and I think youre confused again. Carriers arent allowed in hisec, so why dont you toughen up and accept the status quo.
I didnt say Smartbombers, i said Stealth Bombers.
I understand youre having a hard time keeping up, because your brain is stretched to its limit. But please, try and keep up.
If youre being a hypocrite by saying that the negative, risk-aspects of Nullsec should stay in nullsec, but the Good, positive aspects should come to hisec, then yes. I have a problem with that.
As long as there is a difference between Nullsec and Hisec, which youve admitted there is, then there is no equal chance to compete.
Either Nullsec and Hisec are the same, in which case they are equal, or they are not the same, in which case they are not equal.
You said and agreed that there is a difference, and that they are not the same.
Therefore, there cannot be equality, if they are not the same.
Q.E.D.
Sure. Wardecs.
They replenish every day. In what way are they limited?
