The other problem with the now apparently defunct ‘3-minute bumping timer’ is that it wasn’t likely ever going to be the safety blanket the freighter pilots assumed it would be. As the current mechanics are, applying a suicide point cancels the warp attempt and thus would reset the bumping timer. Sure, that would put a small additional demand on a criminal fleet, but they already have to have a suicide ship on standby every 15 minutes to circumvent log off timers so making it so the gankers have to do that every 2.5 minutes isn’t going to suddenly save your 10B ISK overloaded freighter.
And it always comes back to that. You are always suppose to be vulnerable to the other players in this game, especially if you fly a big, lumbering capital ship. Many freighter pilots feel entitled to some way to make themselves perfectly safe and these types will claim the game is “unbalanced” if there isn’t a way they can guarantee their safety. These types point to a killmail of an empty freighter as if it is proof that the game is broken even though exploding ships for whatever reason we want is the primary activity of a large section of the players (and make no mention of the 999 other freighters that flew through that system safely). No matter how much CCP keeps buffing haulers it will never be enough.
While I think replacing bumping with suspect timers for tacklers to interdict capital ships as the method to start escalating a fight is worth considering, the truth is bumping largely works fine to do this. It is only effective against the largest ships and there is play and counterplay around it even if it is sort of arcane and unintuitive to the novice. Making it so you could just clear tackle with lasers and antimatter would make the whole thing more accessible, and open the door to a real escalation of fighting as flags propagate, but come at the cost that freighter pilots would actually have to defend themselves against tacklers instead of letting CONCORD do it.
Given how the system works, and that so few freighters are actually ever attacked, I can see why CCP is reluctant to spend any time on changes to the system. Not that it isn’t worth rehashing these ideas in case someone is paying attention, but realistically what we have now is what we will have for a long time. Ones energies are better spent learning how to play the game with the existing mechanics, and teaching other to do the same, rather than lobbying CCP to change niche aspects of the game to make them slightly better.
Because the webber has 2-3 more ticks until the webs hit due to alt tabbing. And you cannot web too early otherwise you mess up the webbing and prevent the insta warp. Learn your webbing fu before you counter me.
Which is going to happen on every trip through an unavoidable choke point unless you are extremely lucky with a direct WH. Bumpers like kusion are really insisting about their bumps. Talking from experience.
No. First of. Stop taking parts of the paragraph out of context and then gasp about it. The rest of the paragraph and the paragraph is essential for the meaning. To repeat from that paragraph: Gankers do not care about the sec status loss because they only hug stations and do not need to move around.
And yes, you understand me correctly that I have to pay more money per trip under such a scheme to maybe prevent a gank on my worthless target even than the gankers have to pay to keep me tackled.
They do not need to split attention between 15+ accounts when they bump. Please read the text before you try to be funny.
In other words: If you do not manage to gank me in 3 minutes (which are indefinitely extendable with a couple of alts), I don’t see why should still feel entitled to get my ship. Especially not with the 10+ minutes advance notice from your cargo scanner. You know, like in the old days when people didn’t need to prepare me for 30 minutes just so that their alts can gank me. I am not safe with this 3 minute warp timer. You just do not want to understand it. Like in that other topic.
Furthermore, I suggest you read this post of mine because it outlines what I do with almost every freighter trip around space. Only in your warped mind this probably counts as nothing, right?
I do not see burning irony. Maybe you want to help me pointing it out? I criticized Patti’s suggestion because it is easily exploitable, just like the other suggestions. His suggestion leaves so much open space for exploitation, as outlined in my many posts above, that it does not count as clearly defined wiggle room. I also showed interest in Toran’s suggestion, and have not even ruled out the suggestion itself but said that I have no faith in CCP capabilities to program that correctly. That’s a difference.
That’s what I remarked in the old feedback topic as well. But it would cut down on the annoying 30+ minutes bumping sessions with the dumb bumper trying to make fun of you.
is not mechanics exploitation, its gamers
using mechanic in a sandbox,
in a sandbox we are given tools and a rule set
from that a meta emerges
I am suggesting that the current meta could use some work-
I think that there may be a way, it may not be my way, but there is no need to give up on trying.
You said:
‘criticized Patti’s suggestion because it is easily exploitable, just like the other suggestions. His suggestion leaves so much open space for exploitation, as outlined in my many posts above, that it does not count as clearly defined wiggle room.’
But the ‘many posts above’ are your posts.
I have taken your views on board, you would like a 3 minute timer, after which the pilot can warp to safety.
I suggest this 3 minute timer followed by insta warp- with no flag- is not a fix, and may make matters worse because
a) It is no harder for the gankers really, they can still interdict which is an ‘act of war’ (it S an aggressive act) without going suspect
b) The only change to the gankers’ gameplay would be having three minutes to bring the DPS- they can counter this with more alts and by limiting their operations to one or two systems- OH its mostly just 0.5 systems on choke points anyway
c) It gives the industrial player no additional gameplay, they are a sitting duck for three minutes, then they magically warp out. There is nothing they can DO to fight back or get help, without being punished by the police THEMSELVES for protecting their own cargo.
d) By limiting the industrialist- nay carebear (said with respect I can assure you)- to a passive response in which they are protected by mechanics but have no hand in shaping the response or gameplay themselves, it preserves the current meta in which new would be carebears are told to avoid not resist, to hide not evade, to be ‘fish in a barrel’, and to avoid pvp because pvp that is not an honour duel or fair fight = greifing.
e) It does not provide any consequences for the bumper, who may continue to use a 500mil pirate battleship to bump with impunity.
I am not disputing that there is need for work on the way things are. What I dispute are the ways that players suggest because they improve nothing and only make matters worse for the haulers. Come up with a suggestion that I cannot dispute and you won’t see me dispute it.
I also already stated that the 3 minute warp timer is far from perfect. I also already stated that it does not impede ganking or provide significantly more safety for haulers. You don’t need to parrot me, I can read my own text. Thank you.
I only pick this point because everything else is just parroting my points. And what does your suggestion change here? Machariels do not tackle. Blackbirds tackle. There are virtually no consequences for the bumpers. And suspect flag for the suicide tackle also does not provide any means to haulers to fight back. That is, among other things, what I criticize about your idea. Furthermore, suspect flag for bumping only introduces exploit potential. No, bumping a freighter into a stationary alt repeatedly is neither much work nor is it a “emergent meta”. It is just crap. And it’s easily achievable crap. If you do not want to recognize this, and you clearly don’t, I cannot help you.
I flew freighters a couple of years ago and encountered my fair share of bumpers - ransom bumpers rather than gankers since I flew within guidelines and was never an attractive gank target.
In my experience, if you stop your ship and set your camera to look forward over the spine of your ship, something warpable will pass in front of you within a couple of minutes - probably sooner with all the Citadel spam we have these days. Simply right click - warp as it passes in front and you’re gone. Maybe there are bumpers with enough talent to prevent that, but I never encountered any.
I still use a Loki for webbing (as opposed to a Huginn or Rapier) and the lock times with my fit are:
So it’s one server tick to lock, one more for the webs to land and the third tick the Freighter is invulnerable (so cannot be pointed either by a suicide blackbird).
With windows arranged well, you can be ready to lock as soon as the freighter appears on overview.
With my terrible ping from AU at times, I made a really poor video the other day as I was going to post some tips in the highsec freighter thread in GD, but changed my mind. In any case, with the advantage of being able to choose when to delocak, combined with a 3 tick lock->invulnerable, webbing is faster than several seconds.
Here’s the video (but quality is rubbish and I’ll republish in HD):
When the ping isn’t as crap, it’s quicker then that.
Please read that quote carefully. The “several seconds” do not only apply to the locking but the entire process. This is still 1-2 more ticks than the suicide tackle has to point your freighter. And choice when to decloak or not does not matter. The suicide tackle uses an overview that only shows the freighters. It does not matter what else is on grid.
A suicide point cannot lock faster than 1 tick. That’s impossible. So if you use the advantage you have of knowing when to decloak, you are invulnerable before the point can land.
See the difference? And again, when you decloak does not matter. Your freighter is the only thing on their overview. Their mouse hovers over the top of the overview where you appear and lock you instantaneously.
I am on my webber’s account before my freighter appears on my side. That does not mean it’s not already there for the other person because, as you said it, pings matter.
If you want to add in the ping matters argument, then it all evens out as it could be even worse for the suicide blackbird.
It becomes a variable just to add to win an argument, not to have a balanced discussion.
If you want a balanced discussion, then you have to apply the same conditions to both sides and there is always some variability that can’t be part of game design at all.
It still doesn’t change the fact that it’s 3 ticks to invulnerable if you use the correct technique.
There’s no way in my view, we should ever be saying “CCP should change mechanics because someone’s ping can be poor”. ■■■■ happens and there should never be no risk. If ping is bad, dock up until it improves.
Then please do not bring up pings to the discussion? And I also did not suggest any changes to bumping or suicide tackling based on pings. Neither the 3 minute warp timer that I somewhat support nor what Toran suggested rely on pings.
Oh god. Whatever. I wasn’t making an issue of ping ffs.
This is why adding any posts in the forum is dumb and why I didn’t offer advice in the freighter thread. People take every word as gospel, but only to push their own point. It wasn’t important at all.
I’m done. Dumb conversations are dumb (unfortunately as usual).
Webbing, if done correctly, with good technique, eliminates nearly all of the risk and if fast. Irrespective of anyone claiming it takes several seconds to web into warp, I’ll just keep safely hauling regardless. Have fun. Fly safe.
If you want a balanced discussion show a video of a real life scenario where you web yourself before a suicide tackle blackbird is not able to lock you. If you manage that, we can talk. Your video also shows that you need around 4 seconds from decloak to warp: 2:03 decloak, 2:04 switch to the webber, 2:05 locking, 2:06 webbing, 2:07/08 warping. In other words: 4 ticks at least. On the next jump, you took even longer, from 3:24 to 3:30 to get your freighter into warp. 6 ticks at least. The next one is again at least 4 ticks, from 4:35 to 4:40. That’s from your video, counted the steps and seconds at half video speed.
Yes, they are indeed. Especially if people with lackluster knowledge or insight want to lecture other people, and then complain if you people disprove their points… with their own video even.
I don’t know why you are fixated on this. You yourself acknowledge that webbing shouldn’t be 100% safe and if someone wants to sacrifice a suicide tackle ship and manages to beat your webber, they should be able to.
Ok, to get this back on topic, what if there was a compromise in the middle somewhere with Patti’s idea. What if there was a new tackle module that only affected capital ships, it’s use was indeed criminal, but CONCORD didn’t show up for 3 (or 5 or 10 whatever) minutes when this module was used and bumping nerfed/removed completely? I know, it is too complicated to ever be implemented, but it would allow a temporary tackle of a capital ship, CONCORD would still clear tackle for the freighter eventually, but while criminal the tackler couldn’t warp and would be free-to-shoot for the freighters escorts or any passers by. A new module would also allow its use to be locked to larger ships (by hard limit or fitting requirements), say cruiser or bigger so that disposable frigates trolling freighters isn’t a thing.
Again, I don’t expect this will ever be implemented, but just as an exercise, would this be better than the status quo?
I do not want it to be 100% safe and I did not indicate such anywhere. However, I am so fixated on it because Scipio portrait webbing as absolute safe.
That idea sounds indeed interesting. It’s essentially a variation of the 3 minute warp timer and has the same downsides of ganking obviously still possible during that time (which it should be). The positive aspect of your idea is the removal of the bumping. With the bumping out of the way, there are actual ways to fight back against the tackle to actually free your hauler from the tackle, and not just remove the flagable tackle but have very limited ways to get rid of the non-flagable tackle in other suggestion. And of the top of my head I also cannot see blatant ways to exploit or abuse it unlike other suggestions, which is big progress. I like it, but I am pretty sure people on the other side of the aisle would not be happy about it.
Nah, I adapted my idea from allowing points in high sec but only with a suspect timer, to keeping bumping as a mechanic but for bumping to bring a suspect timer, but only after a set number of bumps or after a timer.
I listened to your points and the points of others, and tried to find a work around.
edit: can you have a look at my actual post and tell me what you think?
I have listed several issues that I think a 3minute ‘warp out’ timer could bring, and I have suggested a possible alternative.
Can you tell me why each of the problems I have outlined are not problems?
Can you point out the flaws (which must be there, I’m no genius) with my alternative?
I started this thread to learn, to grow, and to possibly get enough information to have an opinion, its up to you more experienced players to help me see the details.
This is the internet you cannot let these responses prevent you from continuing with your calm and informed analysis.
People read these threads who do not post. They form conclusions, and they can see the difference between someone adding content, and someone pushing an agenda.
You have added value and information to this discussion and it has not gone unnoticed I can assure you.
Many people reading this will become better freighter pilots, and most can see when someone is just pushing an agenda.
And I think that is a good thing. The game doesn’t need a safety blanket, but perhaps it does need an end to 30 minute bumping sessions.
Granted that is the case now, but does it have to be? Instead of worrying about a 3 minute timer, how about we just set a maximum number of times you can bump a given player on grid? Like after 10 bumps you just start passing through your target? That doesn’t require any kind of change that would give a free pass to haulers wanting to instawarp to safety after being repeatedly bumped.
