An old article about ideas UO and Crowfall developer in PVP

Layering emotion and motives you can’t known onto the basic game design isn’t especially helpful.

You are wrong. The basic game design specifically has no safe space. Highsec is just the highest level of security, not complete safety as that is just for stations. No, this is not just semantics, this is one of the key core premises of the game - the whole universe is the battle arena. From a game design perspective this has many benefits - it makes player choices matter for one so that how you fit and fly your ship have a meaningful impact on your success in the game. A true safe space (from PKers), would lack actual gameplay, especially back in 2003 when CCP lacked the ability to add meaningful risk to highsec from NPCs.

Players love free safety, so it makes sense that much of the player activity would congregate here, especially if you allow transport of goods back from more dangerous places for trading. And it therefore follows that player pirates would be active in this area. No, those pirates aren’t hiding from “real PvP” whatever that is, but rather they are preying on other players who fail to protect themselves in the safer section of the battle arena.

Honestly, at least from a safety perspective CCP has done a reasonably good job at making a space where you are mostly safe, most of the time, and you have to take a risk or make a mistake to be viable target for pirates. The ships most at risk are yield/bling fit mining and missioning ships, and overloaded transport ships, but almost everyone else is left alone. But there are still choices to be made there and consequences for choices.

Of course balance isn’t perfect. Like everywhere in this game, changes in the game and the game balance are possible to better target hostile actions on those with the most power/assets/experience. But the basic idea works just fine. Choices matter. Fits matter. And death is a serious matter! It’s all working as intended and designed, and this is a key part of the recipe that grew Eve as an IP, as a game and as a brand, whereas so many other MMOs faded into obscurity and irrelevance with their WoW clones.

More importantly, it isn’t going to fundamentally change. Not now, not this late in the life cycle of the game. They could make a real “safe space” with appropriate safeguards on resource spawning to protect the larger economy, say like how Albion Online tweaked to the general Eve recipe when they cloned it, but unless that happens as part of a new, safe NPE zone I see zero chance of CCP finding the resources to change fundamentally how highsec works now. It would be a huge amount of work for very little gain.

That means players have to accept the original design of the game, or not. No amount of forum wailing is going to change these leopard’s spots. Especially not when every time CCP has spent effort on making highsec safer, they have been rewarded with less players and less activity. With all the other low-hanging fruit that would be more likely to increase activity, re-imagining highsec mechanics must be bottom of their priority list.

Which is a bit of a shame. I have to believe there is a better system for enabling risk and player-driven consequences to players in highsec that might be more fun for both sides. Classic suicide ganking is rather one-dimensional, brutal, and not a great driver of escalation and prolonged interaction. But such is the reality as I see it.

Everyone knows non-consensual PvP drives some people away from Eve. But you aren’t looking at both sides of the balance sheet. Risk, loss, and destruction also bring people to Eve - in fact probably are the biggest defining feature of the game. If you ask people why they play Eve instead of another MMO, the answer is inevitably going to be related to the meaningfulness of their actions or the effect they can have on the universe, either through direct space ship violence, or participating in the economy that is driven by this space ship violence. That is possible because the game universe is both persistent and we are all vulnerable to each other.

I think Eve could do a better job at communicating that you are always at risk to new players, and this would probably help set expectations, especially of those coming from other games where you can’t really lose anything, and maybe improve retention a small amount. But as you say, for any veteran Eve player suicide ganking is a non-issue. Highsec is very safe and really only puts the most wealthy at risk to direct piracy, and even those risks can be mitigated by playing the game, and countering the limited avenues of attack available to pirates in highsec.

Non-consensual PvP everywhere is here to stay in Eve, for better or worse. Putting it in a game clearly does come with costs and makes balancing the ecosystem a high priority for that game, but it also comes with benefits that are hard to bring about any other way. However, I don’t think anyone can seriously claim that “too much” non-consensual PvP is high on the list of problems with Eve right now, nor, to bring it back to the OP, do I think anyone who honestly looks at the situation would think a new, PvE-only Eve server would be viable in the slightest.

I get it - some people don’t like non-consensual PvP. They don’t like the risk of losing virtual items. Good for them, but some people do. Eve was always a place for that latter group. Eve is what it is, and all of us have to take what we like about it with what we don’t, and then make a decision whether we want to play. That’s at least the adult thing to do, instead of acting like an entitled brat like some people do on these forums with their tantrums demanding the world change to suit their wants.

5 Likes

I played UO during this epoc. All the PvP characters moved to Fel and complained that none of the carebears moved there.

After they doubled the resources in the pvp lands some brave souls who wanted to take a calculated risk moved there.

The difference in eve is the Eve dev team wants mining ships to move to null to more or less eject / be stationary targets for the the elite pvp that rolls through.

1 Like

Situations like those make majority of those complaining “elite” PvPers look like soft noodled griefers honestly. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

1 Like

There are already severe consequences for criminal activities in highsec and lowsec. The issue here is as always that some people want 100% safety so they don’t have to deal with the minimal risk that suicide ganking still poses.

At the moment if you for example mine in a Procurer or Skiff there is almost no chance you get killed ever. Since the ships of an attacker get killed by CONCORD without insurance payout, the amount of money someone would have to invest to kill a Skiff is about 10x that of the Skiff. If you are alpha the Venture should be able to escape from almost any situation if you are not AFK as well. And even some of the other mining ships can be tough to kill if tanked correctly.

What you use depends on what risk you want to take. You can still use a blinged out Hulk and maybe pay for a ship you occasionally lose with the more money you make. Or maybe you just pay a lot of attention and don’t lose a ship. There are other tricks like switching the ship on an Orca if you get attacked, so the ganker loses his ships while yours is safe and you can laugh in his face.

Imagine if there was no threat of ganking. There would be no reason for anyone to pay any attention or come up with strategies to defend or even account for such things. There would be no reason to even consider mining in something other than a blinged out Hulk with all faction modules on it because there is no chance of it dying. It would be absolutely boring for everyone.

This is obviously what people like @Kezrai_Charzai here want. They are not new player or concerned about them. They are usually veteran industrialists who want only the part of the sandbox they profit from but not the one that poses any risk to their activities so that they have to cope with that risk (which is perfectly possible and actually part of the game). Don’t buy their lies that this is about new players.

Hyper-dunking was a strategy to kill a ship with high hitpoints with a single character. This usually worked the way that you jettisoned a pile of high damage ships right on top of the target and a second pile of shuttles >150k away. Then you would do:

  1. board a DPS ship and shoot the target until CONCORD explodes your ship.
  2. warp your pod to the shuttle pile and board a shuttle.
  3. wait until CONCORD warps away from the target to you and explodes the shuttle.
  4. warp back to the target and restart at (1) until the target explodes.

The reason why you have to do that is when you attack something and CONCORD kills you they will stay on grid. If you attack something else with CONCORD still on grid you will instantly die. This is why you have to draw them away like this.

This could be easily messed with. Even slight interference or the target not being AFK would completely mess up the whole process. Somehow CCP removed it anyway and never actually talked about why. You can’t board a ship in space anymore if you are on a criminal timer.

2 Likes

Hairsplitting over word definitions isn’t especially helpful. Particularly when you turn right around and say:

It’s pretty clear that high sec is the safest space in the game. It’s pretty clear that when PvP-wannabes talk about miners hiding in their safety zone they mean high sec.

Well if that’s the case, then it’s designed rather poorly, since actual paying player numbers have been dropping steadily for 6+ years now.

Except it’s not growing, and it is in the process of fading into obscurity. That’s the point of discussing change.

Feel free to point out anywhere I asked for high sec to ‘fundamentally change’, or to become safer, or to eliminate ganking, or to punish gankers, or any of the other knee-jerk reactions the panicked PvP-wannabes in this thread have come up with.

I said “don’t attack your current players or remove anything, just add new, more interesting, more engaging systems”. CCP seems no longer capable of designing or implementing fundamental change. The only changes that could work would be smaller changes to existing systems.

CCP actually has come out with a number of systems over the years that almost, but don’t quite, work. Bounties, crimewatch, Faction Warfare, Wardecs, Resource Wars, a number of the event designs, etc. Most of these mechanics could be altered just a little bit to work better and promote more interesting gameplay. That’s where the focus needs to lie.

You keep getting this wrong. Getting it wrong yet one more time won’t make it ‘right’. Crimewatch 2.0 led to highest numbers ever for EVE. It pulled EVE out of the slump it was already headed into. The fact that they did nothing else at the time to address other EVE problem areas is why it didn’t work for longer than a year.

Do you seriously think that rolling back safety in high sec and undoing Crimewatch etc. would lead to growth in player population?

Except the data from the game that inspired EVE says “non-con PvP cost us hundreds of thousands of players, way more than we gained from PvP. When we implemented Trammel, the player base doubled.”

You also missed the points made earlier and the math of the OP’s link:

Every happy ganker directly equates to dozens/hundreds/thousands of unhappy gankees. You can sit back all day long and say “Yeah but they’re losers, if they quit over getting ganked good riddance!”, but you’d still be wrong.

It’s non-sustainable. You can’t allow less than 10% of your player base to each chase away tons of players. Over time it leads to a magnified loss of players, particularly as disgruntled players leave the game and badmouth EVE mechanics in other media.

As for “hiding from real PvP, whatever that is”: ‘real’ PvP is where both sides face a similar degree of risk. In this case the risk is not of losing your ship, that’s simply a business expense. Ganker hangs around in safe space in a cheap gank-fit ship, waiting for a target where the likely reward from killing the target exceeds the value of his gank-fit. It’s not real risk, it’s just a business calculation.

‘Real’ risk involves having your game plan for the day disrupted by someone else. ‘Real’ risk involves the potential for suffering loss at a time and place where you won’t be rewarded with a bigger payout than your loss.

PvP wannabes in high sec are some of the safest people in the game.

There is no incentive to hunt them. There is no profit in killing them. Concord protects gankers far better than it protects rich targets because the economics of the system do not support a positive return from hunting gank-fit ships.

They are using high-sec mechanics to cruise in near-absolute safety and lack of risk, while claiming that their targets are weak and useless non-competitive carebears because they are in the exact same space, but at greater risk. This is the very height of hypocrisy!

Regardless, the value judgements either way are irrelevant. It’s just the math that matters. Every happy ganker equals a large multiplier of unhappy gankees.

The real issue, as stated before, is not the undeniably bad math of ganking. The real issue is that all these people don’t have anything better and more interesting to do than boring PvE and cheesy ganking.

If EVE added more and better things to do, these other problems would be less of an issue.

Guys, you know …
… it’s actually embarrassing participating in this nonsense some of you wrongly call “discussion”.

1 Like

Noticed to late that @Kezrai_Charzai was either Balos or that other guy who claims to be a game designer and cries endlessly about ganking.

It is. It’s also not safe. It is just the most mechanical section of CCP’s Battle Royale game.

Is it? Or has it just been implemented rather poorly? Like for many years the formula seemed to work. And then it stopped.

I don’t claim to know. But it does seem strange to me to have a design work well for 8 or so years, and then just stop working. It’s possible of course for some intrinsic reason, as is external factors changing the equation, but it seems a simpler explanation that they just took their eye off the ball and aren’t doing what once worked as well as they should.

No, why would it?

It won’t work. CCP knows this. Even you know this. Eve, as it is designed, would be a terrible, non-functional game as a pure-PvE experience. Maybe in an alternate reality, where CCP spent all those resources they wasted on failed projects re-engineering a playable PvE version of Eve, a Trammel thing might have worked, but they didn’t and here we are. CCP would be better off continuing to emasculate their current game to chase mainstream players than to try to split it, driving off most of their remaining players, in a vain attempt to woo PvE players with a 16-year old game whose PvE wasn’t especially interesting even back then.

I reiterate: there is zero chance of a Trammelization of Eve at this point. The persistent, continuous aspect of the game with all that history is basically all the brand has left at this point. No one who manages to get a hold of the reins of Eve Online will squander that in such a amateur way. If the accountants fully take over, they will instead ramp up the pay-to-win mechanics, and just rain down wealth and safety like they have already been doing to chase a larger, mainstream market, trying to sell the illusion of “hardcore” if they ever really give up on the PvP sandbox niche. They won’t make the rookie mistake UO did and split their player-base when the PvE alone is such a inferior gaming product.

Even in full-on monetization/milking mode there is a decade of profits left in Eve Online. Splitting the server, they’d be lucky to get the 2-3 years UO got before the game was effectively done.

And equally, dozens/hundreds/ thousands of industrialists and gatherers who get a sense of satisfaction from producing something another player is willing to give them something of value for.

The economy is the lifeblood of this game. Enabling it should be the utmost priority for CCP, and that also means ensuring there is destruction and things have meaning. That means risk, “nowhere is safe” and full-loot PvP isn’t going anywhere.

16 years is non-sustainable? Thousands of people still try Eve for the first time each week. It’s completely sustainable. Boredom drive more people away than ganking ever has.

Not really sure of that. Playing the game as the rules are written isn’t hypocrisy. Safety for one player is also safety for the other - what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Players are suppose to serve as the major source of risk for each other, so if someone has gathered resources yet failed to protect them, it is the smart game theory decision to relieve them of their assets and punish them for their… overly jubilant decisions.

Eve is a competitive game. There a consequences for your decisions. It’s up to CCP to make that game interesting, so that people both take risks, and are called on them by other players. That’s perfectly fine and intended.

What is hypocrisy is wanting to participate in our shared competitive economy from a position of perfect safety. If you want to influence the universe, you have to be open to being influenced by the other players. Such hypocrisy is not only unfair, it makes for a boring, uninteresting game.

I doubt we’ll ever bridge the gap between these points of view, but neither of us have any say in what CCP does so it doesn’t matter. Regardless, I hope you are maximizing your enjoying of CCP’s creation as much as you can!

4 Likes

Can’t believe anyone is taking this article seriously.

The guy outted himself as one of the people who destroyed the game as soon as he said PvPers “preying” on each other.

Those are not the words of a thoughtful developer, those are the words of a cry baby care bear, the kind that ruined UO.

3 Likes

I don’t think he worked on UO until a release or two after Renaissance(Trammel). However the rest of the lead devs all also stated flatly that non-consensual PvP was bad for UO as a business (however good it might have been for generating ‘stories’. ‘Stories’ don’t pay the bills.)

An aspect of the articles that doesn’t get touched on much, is where in the UO post-mortem they talk about ‘giving players the tools to police themselves’.

Personally I think the Concord mechanic is kinda lame and boring, and not really representative of what EVE is supposed to be about. If I wanted to design a ‘harsh and unforgiving universe, where actions have consequences and people need to deal with them’, I probably would have gone with something like:

  • Concord only covers rookie systems, career agent systems, trade hubs and maybe 1-2 jumps out from trade hubs (slower response time each jump out), and possibly a couple other systems designed to be neutral meeting grounds.
  • Leave the flag system somewhat as it is, but make it so that killing an ‘illegal’ target bumps your ‘Criminal Standing’. It also gives ‘kill rights’ to the corporation of the person you killed. Since most systems have no Concord, kill rights in this context only means ‘they can shoot you without getting criminal flags, but if they do you can shoot back’.
  • The length of the kill rights the victim corp gets depends on the value of the kill. Corps could also pay ISK or possibly Concord/DED LP (see below) to extend those kill rights.
  • Bounties would pay out 65% of ‘destroyed value’ from the killmail.
  • Killing criminals pays out some type of Concord/DED LP based on (destroyed value) X (Criminal Standing). Notorious criminals pay out more.
  • Once your ‘Criminal Standing’ got high enough, the kill rights would extend to the targets’ alliance.
  • Once your Criminal Standing gets high enough, that’s it, you’re declared a pirate and are KOS to everyone everywhere.
  • A significant criminal standing would cancel the ability to buy ship insurance.
  • It would be very difficult to lower your Criminal Standing (however you might get benefit with the pirate factions for it).

It would need some testing and tweaking, but I think this would result in a few things:

  • People would have a strong incentive to join the biggest meanest corp they could.
  • Gankers would face the same kind of risk their targets do… that of being a viable target at any time to any random attacker (with kill rights) that happens by.
  • Bounties would become meaningful again, and players would have some recourse to being attacked (if you can’t fight back, just slap a bounty on him).
  • People would have an actual reason and economic motive to fleet up and go looking for gankers/criminals.
  • Criminals would have to choose between flying around in a paper tiger ‘gank fit’ or fit for tanking or escaping.

Now being a criminal would be a real thing, being a ‘white knight’ or cop would be a real thing, and even victims would have some agency because every bit added to the bounty would make the target that much more likely to be killed.

1 Like

No, the issue is not safety (Though I’m sure you can find someone who will bleat for 100% safety)
The issue is that ganking is boring and basically one sided.
When you point at all the other MMO’s assuming you are the same level you have a reasonable fighting chance. You have your own pile of combat skills, abilities, comparable weapons. It is either a skill difference or a surprise difference which makes the kill happen.

In EVE, that isn’t true. Industrial class ships including miners have been designed as targets and make virtually no sense in the game world where pirates are attacking you every 10 minutes in the highest of sec belts.
This could be easily solved by changing the design principles of industrial class ships to be similar to that of other ships, allow real fitting, allow weapons, and adopt some basic design philosophies such as “Industrial ships are slower, use the speed and maneuvering of the next size class” (as an example). Then you give a longer Concord timer. And now a single ship can try and gank because they have enough time, but their targets actually have fight back ability, and a group of them all working together can put out a decent defence.
But an AFK or badly fitted target is still an easy kill.

(Bonus points for removing Concord spawns and making it a Remote self destruct command from Concord HQ instead, as Concord spawns cause issues and don’t make great sense).
Trying to limit Concords kill ability however is silly. We have seen what happens when Concord isn’t invulnerable and auto killing people. The game gets strangled. This has already happened in EVE’s past, we don’t need to repeat the past we already know is bad.

1 Like

I’m not sure if you jump into the middle of a discussion and pretend I addressed your opinion. Go read what people like @Kezrai_Charzai say in this thread. She is clearly opposed to non-consensual PvP, which means 100% safety in highsec.

Have you ever ganked? I don’t find it boring. In fact I find it one of the last fun activities in this game. A lot of things are one sided in this game. This is not an arena PvP game but a sandbox, so what is your point?

Yes, but this isn’t one of those other MMO’s, it is a sandbox. The fight here are not organized but happen organically because of reasons that emerge from that sandbox. It is simply the norm in EVE that fight are one sided because the important parts of the PvP happens before the fighting actually start. How long are you playing this game? I have seen you around this forums a while now, how can you even write nonsense like that? It’s like you don’t even understand the basics of this game.

No, just NO. There are different type of ships for different types of jobs and some are more specialized than others. If you want to defend yourself when mining go use a skiff. Ever seen one of them fitted correctly? They have literally the same combat performance as a HAC but can still mine at the same time. For industrial ships there are T2 variants that are literally uncatchable because they can warp cloaked. For bigger haulers you have jump freighters which can just teleport away.

And yes, there are other options that are cheaper and/or don’t offer the same amount of protection but may have other advantages. It is the choice of each player which ship he wants to use for what job.

That will have zero effect. If you can scan and calculate the EHP of a target you can also calculate the DPS and account for it. You will end up in the same situation you have today. You will never have a fighting chance. That is not how this game works. Again: The actual PvP happens before the combat. If you don’t understand that you will always suck at this game.

2 Likes

When you come out with rubbish like this, you clearly don’t have a clue. And that is about all that needs to be said about your whole reply.

Go to pyfa, fit a HAC and a Skiff and compare the stats

DPS 330, 250m/s, 80ish DPS tank, 50ish K range.
vs
DPS 450sih, 580m/s, 250 DPS tank, 50kish range.

And that was using an eagle which is considered one of the weaker HAC’s as far as I am aware.
So… Yeah, stats compared, your statement saying a Skiff compares is still rubbish.
The only thing it compares on is raw EHP.

Maybe you are just bad at fitting ships. But never mind, so am I, but I just quickly threw this together and got something like:
DPS 414, 614m/s, 270 EHP/s, 46k EHP

Screenshot of pyfa fit

Oh and that is a super cheap fit without any implants yet. So if you really care we can optimize it and surpass that HAC. Notice how it is still able to mine? It only has t1 strips, but you can easily make that t2 with implants.

And now please explain how defenseless does that look to you? The Skiff is literally at the point that it can no longer be buffed or it will outclass the combat ships of it’s size.

Now let’s watch the excuses.

I used no faction equipment and T1 rigs. An actually believable fit. You had to go max DPS max level of faction Drones to get to within even the ballpark of a not all V’s Basic T2 Eagle DPS.
Also note the resists there.

I mean, if you really want to play that sort of game I’m going to hand you off to someone like Arrendis. You know the Skiff does not match HAC’s, yes you can play with certain numbers using faction drones that make it seem similar on some of the base numbers, well done. Slam that same level of faction onto the HAC’s and they jump ahead again though. Not to mention stuff like the ADC.

Also, the Skiff is not “Industrials”.

Man I really start to feel embarrassed for you right now. This was a super cheap and realistic fit. As I said I didn’t even use implants. And sorry, but not using the augmented drones on a PvP drone setup would just be stupid. They aren’t that expensive.

I’m still waiting for the explanation of how this is a defenseless ship.

I’m still waiting for the quotes on where I said the skiff was a defenseless ship.
I said it wasn’t equivalent to a HAC.

Oh sure, you want to tell me that sentence doesn’t mean you said they are defenseless? Are we back to word games. You know exactly what I mean.

I just demonstrated that the Skiff can be fitted as a pretty competitive combat ship while still capable of mining. The industials have a ship that can travel cloaked and the freighter one that can teleport.

They have their means of defense, even if it is evasion.

Is the problem that they don’t have a gun to “defend” themselves? Are you from Texas or something?