On toxic and exclusionary behaviour

TL;DR: Attack the ideas, not the person. Address the in-game behaviour, not some imagined personality defects IRL. Keep some perspective that it’s a game, not real life. Someone disagreeing with you on the forum is not trying to marginalize your lifestyle.

Some posters recently seem to have lost touch a bit with the fact that, despite our sometimes strong feelings about it, EVE Online is a game.

It’s not a career, it’s not a religion, it’s not a war against other people. (In-game, it can be a virtual war against other players, that’s a different thing).

I’ll use a couple specific examples but am not attempting to single any one person out. Why, even I myself have, on occasion, been less than friendly and welcoming to other players.

Apparently these comments can be labelled as “hate speech”:

Under this definition of “hate speech”:

And yet the same poster is perfectly comfortable making these comments:

Note that there is a difference between commenting on a person’s in-game actions, or forum posting behaviour, and attributing significant personality and moral defects to them, IRL, as a group.

Mining is a valid playstyle. Hauling is a valid playstyle. Multi-boxing and AFK play are valid playstyles. These are all valid because CCP designed their game that way. If hunting weak targets in Concord-protected space while remaining personally safe from random attacks is valid for the 10% of the player base who engages in such action, I’m pretty sure that contributing to the in-game economy through the mining, industry, hauling and trading in high sec that roughly 40-50% of the players engage in is equally valid and equally “the way EVE is supposed to be played”.

When you start judging other people, outside of the game, because they perfectly validly play the game in a different style than you prefer they do, you’ve lost perspective.

When you condescend to them for doing safe things in safe space, while yourself hunting only safe targets in safe space; and attacking them personally for choosing to play a completely valid playstyle, you’ve not only lost perspective on the game but you are likely entering into “unhealthy fixation” territory.

Choosing, for instance, a play style that requires other people to be your victim, and then castigating them for not wanting to be a victim, borders on the ridiculous. Your play style may be a necessary part of EVE for you - but attacking other people because they don’t care to be your ISK pinata seems irrational.

Conversely, getting bent out of shape because someone in PvP-inspired game nukes your ISK-boat, when 8 times out of 10 your ISK-boat was fitted out in a way that says “I’m a fat easy target, come nuke me!” makes no sense at all. It’s a PvP game, there is no 100% safety, play as if you’re going to get PvPed every time you undock.

CCP designed the game. CCP made all the changes they chose to. CCP was not placed at gunpoint by any group of players and told “You must make these changes we dictate to you.”

If CCP has made changes you think are bad for the game, then make your points with CCP. Continuing this process of attacking other players for imagined “you ruined my game!” offenses only strengthens the negative perception that much of the gaming population already has of EVE and it’s player base.

Step back. Get some perspective. Address the game, not your imagined failings of the people playing it.

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The guy is a nutjob whose thin skin makes him too easily triggered. Just block him and move on, your experience on the forum will be much nicer. Also, trying to play thought-police is just as bad as him.

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Practice what you preach.

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I agree, I see it often here, toxic people who try to gain the upper hand against someone by posting insults and such, people feel braver behind the mask of anonymity that a forum avatar gives them I think and it gets a little tiresome, im not a member of many forums so I am not sure if it happens in others games but here people are so in love with their own opinion that it is almost like a game to them to belittle another person posting.

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Welcome to the internet.

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It does happen in other games, and in general, the worse the gaming is doing overall in player retention and growth and development, the more aggressive the inter-player disagreement on the forums gets (in my experience).

I probably missed making it clear in the OP (post was already too long), but the idea is, if the game is not working, it’s probably the game and the game design that is at fault.

Thinking that “bad players” who are “bad people” are ruining the game and forcing changes onto the developer only distracts from the real cause of issues, and delays real solutions.

The game is the problem, the design is the problem, the developers need to address those issues. It’s not about the other players (except in the cases of actual exploits, abuse/griefing, botting/RMT etc.).

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Didn’t I hear they recently renamed this to Gabriel’s First Law of Greater Internet Dickwadification? Thought it was upgraded from a theory recently. Can’t find the source. Damn.

Just look at this!

This is coming from the same person that calls people parasites!

The hypocrisy is astonishing!

And no, you can’t hide behind words like “from a game population perspective”. It doesn’t change the fact that you really mean what you write. You are proving this time and time again.

You’re exactly the toxic person you claim others to be,
and you deserve everything you get thrown at you.

You completely ignore that people behave the way they do towards you,
because you are a bad person, who reaps what she sows.

You’re so oblivious to yourself,
you honestly believe you’re not doing anything wrong at all!

If you don’t believe me, stop posting on the forum for a month
and notice how much better it will be because of you being gone.

And take Anderson with you.

Cheers.

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I mean, whatever has been written in your OP can be equally said about people complaining about PvP’ers. The amount of threads on these forums, that somehow wants to link gankers with sociopaths… Sheeesh :roll_eyes:.

Anyways, it’s the internet and narrow-mindedness is not only isolated to the EVE forums. People will people.

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I’m sorry, but I believe you are talking about this comment, in the context of a thread about the effects of non-consensual PvP on game population:

You may have missed all the references there to “game population perspective” and “parasite in the game needs victims”, but these are references to the in-game behaviour being discussed and not to the RL person.

I think you then refer to this quote:

and somehow conflate “If your playstyle vanishes, EVE won’t miss it much”, with a desire for actual people to suffer “extinction”.

These are references to in-game behaviour and in-game playstyles. Now for contrast, this:

see, that’s what we call an “ad hominem” attack on the person, completely free of any reference to the game or the ideas they are putting forth. This is what happens when you make an enemy in your head of the other person in real life and start assuming all sorts of things about them, rather than addressing game issues.

You should think about focusing more on the actual game, and less on your crusade against the “bad people” who are “destroying the game”.

It also strikes me as quite funny that a person who professes so much interest in non-consensual PvP would turn and demonize another player for

Perspective. Game, not life. Real issues, not imagined enemies. They’ll serve your cause better than attacking random strangers on the internet.

Edit: So, I think the ‘community flagging’ thing is really getting out of hand lately, especially since it is anonymous, and especially since some posters have taken to so toxicly, directly attacking other people rather than their points or discussion.

This post was flagged as ‘inappropriate’. It contains no insults, no personal attacks, nothing but direct, clear responses to replies.

If the person(s) hiding behind the anonymous flagging system to quell all comments they don’t like would care to step up and point out what they feel is inappropriate about it, I would be happy to clarify the post.

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This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

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Same. I got one single post flagged and unflagged three times in a row. Also I noticed three of your posts being funny and hidden. Guess some people don’t have an ounce of humor.

Just because people know they are proven wrong, they start attacking the person. They need to fool themselves by claiming that “correlation DOES imply causation” while linking articles that actually say the opposite, and nobody dare to show them that this is stupid !

I do not get why people have so many problems with toxicity in EVE. EVE is literally about murdering you over and over and over again and again and again. It is about destroying your assets, your fun, your will to continue playing, your stats, your self-esteem, your activity and whatnot else over and over and over again. And if you best someone that wants to see you cry, you are met with vile and colorful language.

EVE is real … unless it gets too real for someone’s feelings. :smiley:

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and here lies the problem because you don’t understand the difference about blowing up stuff then taking it to the next leave of toxic - really its about self esteem having some on quit or cry, well done sir you are a true humanitarian.

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And that’s exactly what I’m going to do.

Where there aren’t powerless, helpless, defenseless self-declaring victims around who have literally nothing else but words used to beg at a higher power to help them.

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That has pretty much been the theme of EVE since its inception. As an example, in the past people mocked and grossly parodied people like Makalu from -A- for doing what he did when he got blobbed by TEST and PL. There are several songs about him mocking him not undocking, undocking and feeding, doing anything, retreating to Stain and waiting. EVE is about making your opposite party cry, feel less comfortable, feel annoyed, feel frustrated, feel unhappy. That is what EVE is about.

the crowed stones a women all because 1 person threw the first stone still don’t make it right “sheep” stand back and don’t join the flock “sheep” just because others do it don’t make it right

Didn’t mommy ever say if Paul jumped off a bridge would you, too many so called people use that as an excuse “but he did it”

You’re so wrong about what eve is about but its a waste to try and make you a little more compassionate I guess go forth and spread hate its right because others do it too.

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It is for some people and not for others. That is the beauty of EVE. It is whatever you want it to be, cause that is what it means to be a sandbox. You can choose to make your opponents life miserable or you can choose the opposite.

That is also the reason why CCP seems to have such a hard time figuring out what direction they want to take. It is much more simple to cater to specific player wishes, compared to creating great sandbox mechanics. However, if those wishes are the exact opposite, it is no surprise we have this “EVE is all about chaos. Yet, we’ll keep this 100% accurate and instant intel tool, just to make sure the game isn’t too unpredictable.” (Just a note, I have no opinion in favor of any side on blackout).

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I am not using anything as an excuse. It is literally what EVE is about. It is what CCP portraits EVE as. It is what their trailers portrait it as. It is what the killboards portrait it as. It is what news stories portrait it as. It is stories about corp theft, awoxing, ingame stalking capital pilots for years, ganks in high sec and so on portrait it as.

Naturally. I would not do that to my corp mates or alliance mates that I like, cherish and respect. But people outside that group are simply targets. While I do not usually engage in really toxic speech or actions because I see myself as a reasonable person, I don’t see any issue with the general concept of toxicity being pervasive in EVE.

This is so going to go “off-topic” (whatever the topic here is anyway). CCP can create chaos without taking away Local chat. We have had local chat for 15 years and there has been a ton of chaos in these 15 years. The issue is not Local chat, it is what CCP built around it as well as CCP disregarding the design principles of the past for EVE. These Rorquals should have never been in EVE because they were not originally designed as a super miner. CCP ignored that. Super and Titan production used to be at risk because it was done in POS with limited slots and defensive capabilities. CCP ignored that. I could continue that list without ever having to mention local chat to show why EVE subjective feels “less chaotic”.