Another kick in the face, well done, CCP

[tutucox_Khamsi]

@Ramona_McCandless

I just dont understand this idea that there are only PvP and PvE players exclusively.

I dont usually fly anything with weapons fitted, I make my muns doing indy stuff and hauling

i fly 100% weapons fitted
i cant sleep wen i jump in a gate an there is a blinking idiot and im in a non weapon ship lol
to me the great problem is that non pvp players think that pvp players are there to chase tem and kill them … and they resent that
wen in reality a small fraction of the pvp population works hunting preys , there is the fleet dude ,the warrior empire dude , the stay in his system pirate etc
and the pvp players resent the carebears because they want to change the game in a horrid way

meanwhile ccp is changing the game in a non precedent way and doing NPC content that F the gameplay of the PVPers and PVErs , and we are like , OOOOKAY

we all like the game right?

edit:
btw im a explorer in the classification in most games. i did like 90% of the available activities in eve, im a generalist , i can tell you about MANY things in this game , except PI… i don’t know much about the new content i admit

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Siegfried_Tahl

some play for fun (casual)

Everyone legitimate player is playing for fun. No non-RMTer is making anything of practical value by playing EVE, the only reason to do it is to have fun. So-called “casual” players do not have exclusive ownership of fun.

This is where your chart, like so many attempts before it, goes badly wrong. True “socializers”, people who care very little for the game itself and just want to spend time with certain friends, are way less than 80% of the game and that means the other three categories have to go up to compensate.

Achievers prefer acting on world. Thats the rest of PVE, casual and solved grind.

Disagree strongly. Achievers want to achieve something. Grinding solved PvE endlessly isn’t an achievement anymore, it’s just a giant time sink spent on something they achieved long ago. And TBH I don’t think you can draw a meaningful line between achievers and explorers. You achieve by exploring, you want your exploration to be rewarded with achievement.

The more useful player archetypes in a game like EVE, as a very rough outline:

• Competitors are here to match themselves against other players and defeat them. Whether it’s in the form of combat PvP, empire building, or industry/market domination success is measured by the corpses of defeated enemies.

• Explorers are here for novelty. It may be PvP or PvE but the goal is to beat each obstacle they encounter and then go find another one to beat. The main difference from competitors is that they aren’t likely to stay with a single thing long enough to be the best at it, once they have an answer they’re moving on.

• Farmers are here for big wallet numbers. This is the textbook F2P whale, they want to “win” as quickly as possible and have the game give them a straightforward victory acknowledgement. They don’t want competition or novelty or anything that could slow the grind, only direct translation of time (or cash) invested into bigger and bigger participation trophies.

• Socializers are here because their friends are (and probably gave them some recruitment pressure). They do whatever their friends are doing, and if their friends every quit they’ll follow soon. IMO they aren’t terribly common, EVE isn’t the kind of game that can overcome a low-investment player’s lack of any reason to play besides chatting with friends.

• Roleplayers are here for the story. The actual game mechanics are secondary to playing their chosen character in the fictional universe. Sadly also a rare player type in EVE.

• Trolls are here to ruin someone else’s day. They’re the ones ganking newbies in the tutorial systems with no conceivable profit or sense of accomplishment beyond making the other player hate EVE and quit. Like the RPers the troll doesn’t really care about game mechanics as long as someone is crying.

From a game design point of view competitors are the most important, explorers are second, and it would be really nice to get more roleplayers but it’s not very likely to work. Farmers and trolls are toxic elements to drive away, as they either directly ruin the game or demand changes that conflict with the goals of everyone else.

From a pure business point of view farmers are the best because whales bring the easiest profit. But there’s some tension between keeping a good supply of whales to exploit and a game that everyone else wants to play. The mechanics that maximize exploitation of the farmers make a worse game for everyone else, and most farmers are short-term customers that move on to other games as soon as they’ve “won” sufficiently. Go too far to pandering to the farmers and you enter the short period of cashing in the last revenue from EVE before shutting it down.

[Jett_Blackheart]

@tutucox_Khamsi

to me the great problem is that non pvp players think that pvp players are there to chase tem and kill them

To be honest, that is how PvP in Eve comes across when just starting out. At least in my limited experience.
Low-sec feels like it is only a few situations in which it all boils down to: if you’re not the aggressor, you lose.
And usually, it happens so fast that if you take the time to try and pay attention to what is going on, you’re going to lose your pod too.
That’s my experience anyway (and no, not on this character).

[Nana_Skalski]

Too much killing!
Lets live peacefully.

[Xeux]

We can form a commune in Pochven where we can sing songs and mine ice.

[Siegfried_Tahl]

@Merin_Ryskin

So-called “casual” players do not have exclusive ownership of fun.

A player is not a dot on the chart, but an area. Despite what I said earlier about specialization (I don’t think there is a contradiction), players do not usually have one specialized playstyle all of the time. I’m mostly highsec combat explorer, but I also do ghost sites and nullsec relics, WH gas huffing, lost drones retreiving, clone soldiers, abyss, etc.

Nobody claims to own the fun, cause fun means something different for everyone. Well, except You, Merin.

@Merin_Ryskin

Everyone legitimate player

No true scotsman falacy.

@Merin_Ryskin

The more useful player archetypes in a game like EVE

I do not disagree with you here. There are several classifications from the most simple CCP devs seem to use - builders/destroyers. To a bit more complex and dated, but still legit like Bartle’s 4 types. Theres Bartle’s extended 8 player types. Theres Nick Yee’s 12 player types. There may be more. I think they compliment each other, not contest.

[Jett_Blackheart]

@Siegfried_Tahl

lost drones retreiving

What is lost drones retrieving? People pay to have someone find drones for them?

[Siegfried_Tahl]

Combat probing some mission hub. People forget to pull drones in all the time. It’s mostly T1s and salvagers. But T2s and faction are not that rare. Even found a couple+ of geckos.

Return them to their owners by the means of local market.

Not lucrative at all as full time activity. But I like to practice scanning, filtering out trash, to find occasional treasure from time to time. Scare some mission runner. Ninja some salvage or tags. It’s fun.

[Solstice_Projekt]

So … where do my type of people fall into?
This graph doesn’t actually apply to EVE very well.

I don’t kill for greed, I like hunting afk people as -10. I don’t grab loot, because I don’t use scouts for catching targets.
Can get the heart going when you’re trying really hard to catch someone.

I socialize a lot, especially when I’m around trying to kill people. I even socialize with those who want to kill the killers … (anti-gankers)
… and then we go killing other gankers together, because that’s fun!

I guess it’s not just four quadrants, but everything in between?
Sure, that works, but it still leaves out the top cream of the crop.

Achievers prefer acting on the world, it says. It put this into PvE, but EVE offers far more for achievers than just PvE. Like, you can invent a new ganking fitting everyone will use. Or you’ll manage to rally up enough people to get CCP to release specific clothes they’ve kept under wrap. Or fighting afk people so determined it grows into a bigger thing.

There’s people like Erotica1 who set out to become EVE’s greatest villain and kind of achieved that.

There’s m0o, who achieved so much that they’ve gotten their own system named after them and even (at least, I forgot) one ship is named after a CEO of them, the Zephyr. There’s Ten Tron, there’s Psychotic Monk who invented totally new styles of griefing people, there’s Cannibal Kane who was once considered the End Boss of HighSec for being the most badass, virtually unbeatable King of WarDecs. We have Mike Azariah who grew to fame by being a great, helpful guy and even achieved getting into the CSM (twice, at least). Herr Wilkus, Chribba, Tank CEO, the guys who ran the Guiding Hand Social Club.

There’s Pix Severus, who’s name one come across in highsec almost everywhere, who started a blog and “MTU Hunting” turned into its own thing, also raising retention that way. There’s Diana Kim, widely known role player, who at some point turned into a meme as the reason for why the federation must be destroyed …

… and there’s more!

We’re not actually accurately represented on this.

Yes, this is a legit complaint.
We’re being drowned by the mediocre, boring, average peasants …
… because this graph only covers mediocre, boring, average games and their respective people.

Pfffft.

(To be fair, there’s no other game out there like EVE, where you can actually achieve something relevant in the game world.)

[Siegfried_Tahl]

There’s another classification system if you follow the link above (Jason Vandenberghe, Engines of Play: How Player Motivation Changes Over Time) which is kind of further development of big 5 + SDT + player type theories.

Every metric you measure people by tend to distribute them in bell curve manner, normal distribution. With 60% majority being casual and least engaged, 15% at both sides engaged alot, and 5% at both sides are maniacal zealots.

That’s what you and those other people you mentioned probably are. Highly devoted, highly interested and engaged. If they are killers, they are the best killers out there, world famous or infamous.

Also as I said earlier a player is not a dot on a chart, but an area. They may be interested in different types of gameplay even within same 2-3hr session.

Imagine axis on the player type chart represent how bad you want to act or interact with people or world, the further you are from the center, the rarer case you are. Please do watch the talk.

Those classification systems are not there to put a label on you and frame what gameplay is available to you. But for Devs to know how many of this or that type of players are there in their game. What tyope of gameplay to add. Which part to cater to. Cause there are healthy ratios of player types which help gaming societies grow, and unhealty which make them collapse.

[Ramona_McCandless]

@tutucox_Khamsi

non pvp players think that pvp players are there to chase tem and kill them

Thats the fun part, the chase

"If they catch you, they will kill you.

But first, they must catch you"

Watership Down Prologue

[Nana_Skalski]

@Siegfried_Tahl

Every metric you measure people by tend to distribute them in bell curve manner, normal distribution. With 60% majority being casual and least engaged, 15% at both sides engaged alot, and 5% at both sides are maniacal zealots.

When we take that engagement into account, what would happen when game actually demands from players more engagement then before? Like when it changes rules?

I think the bell curve would still apply, with most people not being so much engaged still. But thats my thinking only.

Also what would happen with the rest that was engaged? They would have limits I think.

I think it all depends on personal limits for everyone.

[Merin_Ryskin]

@Siegfried_Tahl

Nobody claims to own the fun, cause fun means something different for everyone.

But that’s exactly what you were doing, saying that some players “play for fun” and others don’t.

No true scotsman falacy.

Nope, basic facts. RMT operators are not legitimate players and it makes no sense to talk about their motivations in the context of game design.

[Red-Sonja]

@Zatar_Sharisa

so what I’m really after is enough that I can say, “I wonder what that ship is like?” and be able to find out.

Same here. I’d like to be able to get ALL the Alpha ships, and have lost them at least once each, before I move on to the Omega ships.
It’s not about ISk for me, it’s about how much I can get out of EVE.

[DrysonBennington]

Have you tried putting ketchup and mustard on your ore and then eat it? It still might have some value.

[Nana_Skalski]

@Red-Sonja

I’d like to be able to get ALL the Alpha ships

It is a lot. losing them all at least once will be expensive, as faction battleships are really expensive.

Also losing a ship is really easy. A lot easier than making ISK to buy them in case of those battleships. You will feel its not efficient at all, when the fun you can have will be the same like in a battlecruiser worth 100M.

[Red-Sonja]

@Nana_Skalski

It is a lot. losing them all at least once will be expensive, as faction battleships are really expensive.

Yes. It’s something I want to do over the course of a year as I train towards omega skills.

@Nana_Skalski

Also losing a ship is really easy. A lot easier than making ISK to buy them in case of those battleships. You will feel its not efficient at all, when the fun you can have will be the same like in a battlecruiser worth 100M

I’m not looking for efficiency as far as that goes, just fun, personal goal, the satisfaction of knowing I can do it. And yes it will be expensive but I’m ok with that. I plan to take my time. I’m in no hurry.
One positive: it’s easy to lose ships

[Andresoni_Janau]

Just so much ignorance…

@Solstice_Projekt

It wasn’t the PvPers who started this “war”, if you want to call it. It was the carebears. PvPers do PvE as well, PvErs actively PvE and passively PvP (like Jonah), and there’s carebears who not just hate it when people try to PvP them, but also hate it when they have to watch out for people trying to PvP them.

A PvE player has never tried to force you to PvE. PvP players constantly try to force PvP on others. You spend so much time doing mental gymnastics that you can’t comprehend this basic fact. Again, no PvE player has ever tried to force you into doing anything, you are the ones forcing them to PvP.

[Ramona_McCandless]

No one can force you to do anything you dont want to, theres no mechanism for it.

However, choosing not to use the tools available to avoid it, complain and lobby for the reduction in PvP and denouncing any measures by CCP to reduce the over-production are certainly the actions of people who believe in the superiority of PvE exclusicely and have come before you, and continue to come, whether you choose to recognise that or not.

[Andresoni_Janau]

CCP isn’t taking measures to combat the abuse. They’re hiding the fact that there are massive networks abusing project discovery daily, they’re hiding the fact that FRAT is allowed to get busted for bots more than once without real consequences, the only people they’re hurting are real players with single accounts.