Yes, a more coherent/cohesive AG community is certainly something AG can and should do for itself to improve its organisational means etc.
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Please don’t misunderstand: my point here is entirely sincere. Take the example of Red Frog. I realize you may consider this off-topic but from my perspective it couldn’t possibly be more on-topic.
RF doesn’t suffer terribly from ganks. Not because of mechanics wizardry, but because they are an organized group. They have leadership, and protocols. The newbies learn from the vets. The vets learn from each other (and sometimes from the newbies). The expertise of an entire group is concentrated and harnessed towards a singular purpose. This is the greatest force multiplier in the game.
As for what AG can do: follow that model. Is there an AG corp/alliance that has that level of organization and singularity of purpose? This is not a cheeky rhetorical question; I honestly am not aware of one.
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Your change has made literally no difference.
If you dont want people talking about preventing ganks, then take the word out.
Its telling that you care more about arguing semantics than your own threads purpose.
Aurelius is making the same point I have been all through this, but your personal dislike of me made you argue it.
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Agreed. My view is that the gank starts as soon as some player starts to overload his freighter.
Again correct, IMO. The problems for AG are not that they have no means to interfere with a gank, but that they face organizational problems. Note, I am not making some sort of attack on the character of those in AG, but noting that they seem to be incapable of organizing to the same degree as suicide gankers or large NS alliances.
That’s great…we all agree…now the next question is “Okay, how?” Talking about tactics and strategy before you even have an organization is useless.
Edit:
I am going to repeat this as well…
With gankers we know why they are so well organized. Tens of billions of ISK in loot drops. Maybe even hundreds of billions, IDK, I have added up the numbers. But I see ganks with 4, 5, 9, even 12, or 14 billion ISK. Usuaully in anti-tanked freighters meaning it can take as few as 15 catalysts to gank the freighter. If you are getting a loot drop that is 3x, 4x, or 5x the value of you losses…it is not hard to see the benefits. For gankers the costs and benefits are concentrated and the costs are far less than the benefits on average.
Now…what does AG get? ISK like the gankers? No. A nice killboard? Gankers get that too. Bragging rights? Gankers get that too. In short, AG comes up short on the benefits side. The costs are concentrated, but the benefits are diffuse. Whenever you have this you have an organizational problem.
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To steal March Rabbit’s analogy from earlier;
People: Help us! We are dying!
Doctor: Did you get vaccinated?
People: No need, just fix!
Doctor: I cant. Its late stage TB, you caveman.
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Not really. Have you read The New Halaima Code of Conduct?
There is this bit, near the top:
“Since the Code is a living, breathing document, it’s not possible to fully enumerate all of the rules. But here are some examples of the rules, to help everyone get a sense of its spirit:”
That’s right, the list of rules in The Code, as mentioned in The Code are not an exclusive list of the only rules. And so Our (yours and mine) Saviour takes the time on his well-written blog to enumerate and expound upon The Code. That is why it is a good idea to read the blog and keep up to date!
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Lack of an existing coherent AG org does not preclude discussion of existing mechanics means for AG, dispersed as AG currently are.
Discussion of both can progress alonside the other.
Futhermore, this thread aims to provide a place to perhaps inspire players to engage in AG and inform them of how they might do so.
Teckos: Yes, AG suffers from lack of isk/material reward/incentive. There may be ways to provide that, such as AG offering escort services for isk. Or running a SRP off donations. Or doing their damndest to recover the loot before the gankers. Surely there is some way to make it isk worthy.
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I have no personal dislike of you
None of this personal.
I disagree your posts where what you claim. All I saw was fixation on educating other, non-AG players. In any case, that is past now.
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Apology accepted.
So now we are back on topic…
So given that a gank fleet has to congregate somewhere, whats the fastest way to identify where that is?
Or like ramoras do they start following in ones or twos before schooling together to hit the target?
Either way fast scouts with the ability to replace or backup either freighter webbers or general guns would seem wise at first glance to me.
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For purposes of this thread, ganking refers to criminal suicide ganking in HS, primarily.
This, due to the HS peculiar CONCORD mechanics.
I, for one, dont mind discussion of ganking from a wider definition, as long as it atleast tries to focus on the AG side as impetus.
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Good questions.
Imo the most efficient way is sending a web frigate along with the potential target. They thus can web if its possible, as first aid, and report the risk to a nearby AG fleet.
Oh yes agreed Im more thinking about some cheap unmarked outliers in Condors or something, fast enough to check and scout, but also peek into nearby systems but remain fast enough to return to the fleet if they are needed (losses to primary webbing frig etc).
A cheap destroyer is also an option, thus providing some limited dps if gank is initiated before main fleet arrives.
Good idea.
And it would be nice to see destroyers used for their original purpose too lol
Hm… destroyers…
It just came to mind that maybe command destroyers with their MJD might be of use?
- destroyer takes place next to the gate
- freighter uncloaks and initiates warp
- destroyer approaches and engages MJD
- by the time destroyer is close to freighter MJD does its magic and both ships are 100km off the gates
- freighter warps
Will this work? Will this provide enough time for preventing bumping? Or even if bumping happens proper piloting of destroyer should make him close enough for MJD to affect the freighter?
I’m not aware of destroyer MJD mechanics in high-sec. It either does not work at all (unless yellos/red SS) or only affects fleet mates (which is what’s needed).
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Looked it up for you, because I am that nice and have 8 1/2 seconds to spare out of my busy life.
There’s a lot of specifics to consider here but the big restrictions you need to know are that you cannot use this module in high sec
of course looking it up yourself might have taken less keystrokes than typing your post out.
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Micro jump drive field generator (MJDF) cannot be activated in HS.
MJD is different, and only affects the activating ship itself.
I had considered this myself sometime ago, and hence looked it up.
(Infact my interest/idea was in moving miners 100km off ice-fields :D)
(Despite popular belief, Im an NOT a carebear)
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Having said that, there is one potential loophole (but fails in further analysis):
CONCORD insta-scrams all criminals upon arrival, and scrams prevent use of a MJDF, or scrammed ships within 6km, being moved 100km along with it.
If MJDF was enabled in HS, gankers would be unable to activate it, or be moved by it, once CONCORD arrives and insta-scrams them, but the escorted ship and MJDF destroyer escort would be moved 100km (unless scrammed by gankers before the MJDF spools up).
HOWEVER, the escorting MJDF destroyer would suffer a 150% sig radius bloom, and cannot change direction (meaning it will have to almost stop forward motion to remain within 6km of the escorted ship) making it largely a trivial matter to destroy before the 12s spool is complete, or to scram the escort or escorted vessel instead.
Im not sure if there is a mass limitation on what destroyer based MJDFs can move, but doesnt really matter, since the above is already prohibitive enough.
Basically, there is no way to use them in HS currently, and even if you could, its a trivial matter to either destroy the MJDF escort destroyer, or scramble it or the gank target itself, well within the 12s spool up time.
Plus the MJDF destroyer likely costs more than the entire gank fleet, albeit only requiring one capsuleer.
With the advent of citadels, stations are so… yesterday.
When camping gankers in a citadel, make sure you find the optimal point on the undock.
One of my own primary hypothesis regarding AGs potential evolution/emergence in this game, is that it is largely pointless to focus on destroying gankers.
Instead of focusing on destroying gankers, tit for tat, cost for cost, the impetus should be on keeping the gank target alive as long as possible till CONCORD can wreck the gank fleet.
CONCORD is, to quip it short, like in that final combat scene in “Saving Private Ryan”, where the soldiers hold the bridge, at all cost, till air support arrives at the last moment.
They are the “angels on our shoulders” that will arrive to completely and utterly wreck the gank fleet. All that is needed, is to hold off for long enough for them to get there and do their job.
To save “Private Ryan” (ie: the gank target), all AG has to do, is keep him alive. They dont have to destroy the gank fleet, just keep him alive long enough till CONCORD wipes the gankers out.
TLDR:
CONCORD is the gankers greatest, fatal weakness.
No matter how many ships, or how expensive they field, CONCORD will wipe them all out.
Use your enemies weaknesses against them.
Use your own greatest strengths to destroy them.
CONCORD is that, on both accounts.
AG just needs to give them time to do so.