Any theories on why so many people have quit over the last 2 years?

Not necessarily.
Moving stuff from A to B is an activity.
“Inserting stuff into cargo hold of active ship, undocking, jumping, jumping, …, docking, removing stuff from cargo hold” is a mechanic (or chain of game mechanics).
Moving stuff from A to B repeatedly over longer periods of time with the goal to earn Isk make it a profession.

Hauling as a mechanic is simple, not engaging and boring.
Hauling as an activity can be a little more, because it normally is embedded in some kind of bigger context.
Hauling as a profession - meaning this is what somebody wants to do and be in Eve - can be a whole lot more, because it involves a lot more things than just the mechanic of hauling.

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OK thanks for the explanation of your thought process.

Now that I see what you meant you should think about the mechanic of bumping in terms of impact on the players who haul for a profession in hisec as hisec haulers. Yes I know its boring to you and to me but some people like doing it, part of that is finding good jobs and cramming in as much as possible to make as much ISK as they can.

So is hauling something you can do with one account only yes or no?

My feeling is no due to bumping, so goodbye casuals with only one account so no scout and a short period of time to play. That is an example of why Eve has issues, because without bumping they would have fun trying to avoid the gankers on gates, with bumping its just locked into position and nothing they can do. So for the good of that profession in other words hisec causal haulers I wanted bumping removed, won’t stop ganking because ROBCOP has already told me that they can still gank, but it becomes more interesting because a smart player can use the gates and it becomes less of a certainty and more related to player awareness.

Rorqual mining has also had a massive impact on hisec mining with the exception of Mex, again another kick in the teeth to casuals.

And mission running in hisec, whoa so boring

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My theories.

  1. While the Watch List was used to the limit of it’s digital life for things like tagging super pilots, getting range on wardec targets by smaller corps, etc., I used it for two things. To keep an eye on pilots that were on my grudge list, and to know when friends that weren’t in my corp were online. It was my buddies & eventual targets list. In it’s current form, I use it to find names for EveMails in a hurry. Otherwise it’s a non-helpful option to stay in touch. I doubt I’m alone in missing the older ‘evil to supers!’ Watch List. If you can’t find your usual partners in crime without a song & dance of re-follows, what’s the point in logging in?

  2. This is not an instant gratification game. But with hyping Mini-Plex & skill injectors, it sure is trying to advertise itself as one. That won’t keep the wallet/weekend warriors returning. Instant gratification in Eve causes more trouble than it repairs. The 2+ hour rant involving a couple of grumpy old men threatening Texas Law retribution is a perfect representation on why getting the big costly shiny without knowing how to use it can lead to a bit of retention trouble.

  3. VR. Yup, I think that’s part of Eve’s problem. So much is getting fed to it that the game that pays the monthly bills isn’t getting the kind of TLC it’s starting to seriously need. Bugs that linger for weeks & months, ‘new’ content of pretty appearance over actually functional (ahem, new camera! Finish!) promises made that are now years in the waiting for delivery… VR is shiny, new, and (this time around, once again) a gimmick. It’s less of a gimmick than it was in the last couple attempts at VR gaming, but it’s likely causing some of the issues with staying fresh, functional, and glitch-free in New Eden.

  4. Structures. I can handle the costs of a POS for setup & maintenance with my teeny tiny corp. There’s no way in Hek we could foot the bill for ANY of those Upwell jumbotron stations or industrial platforms. I’ve been priced out of the structure game of Eve. Once again, I doubt I’m the only teeny tiny corp CEO going ‘do wha? With what ISK?!?’ I don’t want to own a null system. I wanted to own my little space click stick. So much for that long term dream. If I have to drop RL cash on these Mini-Plex things to flip sale for ISK… no. If I can’t finance my in-game actions with my in-game antics, it’s not meant to be. So CCP has decided owning a little sliver of space to call my own (and hide inside it’s shield when I upset another pilot in system, oops) isn’t meant to be. I wonder how many have fallen off the active rolls due to having their biggest goal yanked out from under them?

I’m sure there’s some grand arching plan CCP has for Eve. From my seat here with the unwashed masses, it looks a lot like shooting themselves in the foot every four to five steps to prove some point, then sending out CCPSeagull in a YouTube video to apologize for the goof. Again.

Mikkhi

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Bumping is indeed a bad feature in its current form as there is simply no counter for solo players in big, slow ships. Even CCP admitted that a while ago and “announced” a fix that should have allowed to warp after three minutes regardless of further bumps. Don’t know what happend to that (except that it isn’t implemented).
Those three minutes would have been enough time for all those situations where bumping can be seen as tactical tool and would have limited the impact on haulers enough to make it bearable - assuming that following a hauler gate by gate and bumping it every time for three minutes would be ruled harassment.

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Endless bumping is a “perma-stun” in gaming parlance, and is universally reviled and considered a bad idea.

Yes, there are ways out of it (such as webbing), and arranging repeated bumps requires specific choices, but indefinite bumping by one ship on one target is a perpetual lockdown on another players capacity to counter it.

Id be ok with multibumping and/or timers/physics that put an upper limit on how long a single bumper can bump a single target.

I dont think bumping in and of itself is causing substantial player activity attrition.

However, overpacked ships where a player has invested more than they can afford to lose understandably leads to rage-quits. But that is a player choice and their own fail. No bump “fix” will ever stop that.

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It’s the biggest reason I dropped 2 accounts and rarely log in anymore.

In fact I probably wouldn’t be subbed apart from being too stubborn or stupid in wanting to finish off the research on some bpo’s.

But well said.

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Thank NS overlords.

So much for Malcanis’ Law.

The opportunistic hypocrisy is astounding.

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What exactly is the problem? That you can’t afford the big structures?
A Raitaru isn’t that expensive and if you only use a service or two the upkeep cost should be very well manageable.

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Makes me wonder about the thought process behind these decisions. The charm of Eve is an accumulation of many playstyles… traders, NPC Killers, robbers, miners, explorers, soldiers. I think that only small gang warefare, solo combat and "fc"ing favours those virtue combat reflexes that dominate ego shooters, be it with or without VR technology
One may just take a closer look at the major player type that is currently participating in this discussion. Gankers (and their victims) play a game of surprise and proper preparation a situation that merely doesn’t exist in VR ego shooting. Eve devs are rookie programmers in ego shouters and vici versa … not much to transfer besides some graphic concepts from eve to VR and from VR to Eve

I dont understand why CCP never changed the map layout. Quite obvious that a big uniform (highsec) market favours jita moguls with their alt producer cohorts. First think to do, if want you want to help newcomers establish is to seperate the market with barriers into different regions …easiest solution would be a 2-3 layers of low sec systems between the different high sec nations.
What they did instead ? They changed the material efficiency skill to become a worthless time bonus skill.:neutral_face:

Alright, I have have a working theory on why so many people have quit in the last two years: Permaband.

Now as you can see, there is a pretty strong correlation between the release of new songs from CCP’s house band, Permaband, and free-falling PCU numbers as illustrated above. Now, from these data one can make several hypotheses:

  1. Eve players don’t like Permaband. This theory seems unlikely given how well their performances are received, and that the release of earlier Permaband material coincided with increases in PCU counts. I think despite the data, something more is at play.

  2. PCU numbers are strongly influenced by the quality of Permaband’s releases and bad songs cause players to quit Eve. At first glance this hypothesis has merit. Beloved songs, like HTFU, seem to cause increases in PCU numbers, while the worst decreases occur after misfires like Come Fly With Us. I mean, I get and even like the concept of that video, but it was a misfire on almost all levels and the final outcome borders on unwatchable. I think it probably did induce a very small, but non-zero number of Eve players to leave the game, but a closer look shows that this isn’t always the case. Warp to the Dance Floor also precipitated a big fall in player counts, but it a very catchy and enjoyable song as is Wrecking Machine for that matter. Similarly, Keep Clickin is a forgettable pseudo-sequel to HTFU which is probably best left out of the Permaband canon, yet it didn’t cause players to leave Eve. In total, it seems unlikely to me that very many people would quit Eve over a bad Permaband song, so I reject this hypothesis as unlikely.

  3. Permaband is a barometer of the development direction of Eve. This is currently my favourite hypothesis to explain the above data. I posit that the theme of Permaband releases reflects the current development gestalt at CCP and are indicative of the current direction the game is going and this development direction is what primarily influences player numbers. The basis of this hypothesis is that songs that celebrate the core ideas of Eve: conflict, explosions, competition, and HFTU-ing are released at times the PCU is climbing, while the songs that go on about ‘friendship’ and hand-holding with your fellow player occurs when CCP is focused on these things and result in players getting bored and leaving the game. ‘The Friend Ship’ is all well and good, but I can go play other games with my space friends if New Eden is made too boring and safe so nothing is happening and the PCU plummets. Whereas if CCP is focused on stoking conflict, player interaction and enabling explosions (and Permaband’s song of the era reflects this) then the PCU climbs as players become more engaged with the game.

I think this last theory largely holds. HTFU and Killing is Just a Means both saw continued growth in PCU after release. Keep Clickin didn’t change much at all, which is somehow appropriate for a song that is not really about anything, while the Kumbaya-themed Warp to the Dance Floor and Come Fly With Us preceded alarming drop-offs in player numbers. The only one that doesn’t fit would be Wrecking Machine, which while all about the core idea of Eve Online - building things and then destroying things in glorious fire - it led into the sharpest downslope (at the time) in PCU numbers since the game’s inception. I can hand-wave this outlier away by saying that while the Upwell structures were intended to drive conflict and explosions which was reflected in the Permaband song, the implementation missed the mark and was botched a tad by CCP to be too safe and too boring.

Therefore, the TL;DR of all this is that people have quit Eve in the last two years because CCP has become fixated on turning Eve into “The Friend Ship” AKA a consensual small-gang spaceship combat game where everyone is a winner, rather than the competitive and cut-throat, single-universe/shared-economy that is sung about in HTFU and Killing is Just a Means. Sadly, it turns out that Eve is rather a boring game when everyone is flush with resources and has excess safety to the point people are more-and-more going to play other games with their space friends while they wait for something to happen.

The good news is that I don’t think any of this is fatal. Some strong corrective action is needed to realize ‘Eve Forever’, namely getting the economy back into order, putting some risk into nullsec, making these Upwell structures worth and/or fun to fight over, and ultimately releasing new space to shake things up. I do think though a lot of that decrease in PCU reflects Eve players doing less in game because less is happening, and spending more time elsewhere, and many of these players will rush back when something interesting is happening again in New Eden.

No doubt, Permaband will release a new song celebrating this upcoming renaissance all about conflict and fighting in New Eden if my theory is correct. One talking about shooting, stealing and grinding each other into dust and we can then rest assured that CCP is thinking again about making Eve great. However, the corollary of this theory is if the next song from Permaband is another one about holding hands and sharing hugs with your space friends, that would not bode well for the future of the game or the PCU.

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The problem is everything about them.

The structure cost (yes I can afford one), the time it takes to be put online, the time it takes to take down and move, the price of rigs and that you have to limit yourself so that most of your bpo’s become semi redundant in that you can’t have rigs for everything.

The cost of on-lining the services and keeping them running is a big isk or time investment, you either buy the fuel or set up close to an ice system and mine and make your own. Add in the fact that you can’t offline the services without a massive cost to put them back online force you to keep them online or not bother in the first place.

I was in a ns corp for a while and we had to have weekly ice mining fleets just to keep the Citadel fueled, one or two guys trying to keep a Citadel or Engineering Structure running very quickly becomes tedious and takes away any fun from playing, fine others might feel different and don’t mind, and that’s fine too.

Personally I’d rather use an npc station than keep a structure running.

So before you come back and say the obvious like use someone elses, been there done that, and twice they went offline and were never re-fueled. So maybe they realised that they were too much hassle for a small corp?

Nor have I any intention of joining another alliance to use them, massive alliances etc are just not my scene, been there done that as well…

I absolutely disagree with the new structures, nothing will change that until they are more accessible to solo players as pos’s were, or the smaller corps.

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You couldn’t resist to put some hard talk into an ,otherwise fantastic none sense post, do you Black_Pedro ?
People surely gonna appriciate your effort.

edit. Btw who is permafrost err… permaband ?

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It’s linked in the post. But if you can’t be bothered here are a few of their videos:



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I don’t think “casuals” are the breadwinner for CCP. This might actually be shifting a little bit with CCP relying on silly little micro-transactions for skin bundles and whatnot but I don’t think we’re full blown casual yet.

So I don’t really care about casuals as they only bring nerfs and changes to gameplay that make them less hardcore and uninteresting. This is Eve Online and it’s not supposed to be easy.

Let’s build a wall and keep the casuals out!

Hopefully the 3 minute bump timer is shrouded by years of work in legacy code :slight_smile:

This is indeed something that is annoying. I moved several structures between wormhole systems (where you still have to wait a week to offline them) - no fun.

But in high sec, you shouldn’t have the need top move them too often.

But this isn’t different from using control towers and in may cases the new structures are cheaper (unless you had a multi purpose small tower before).

No, I wouldn’t say that. Unless you know this person and you are sure that he is really reliable. Doesn’t change the fact, though, that sharing a structure makes sense financially.

It’s probably already on the “things we promised but players will hopefully forget about”-list. Next to “no bumping while tethered” and many other things I have actually forgotten.

Drac! I thought you had gone! I missed your tears over ganking! Thank you for this!

#Draclivesmatter

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The absolute saddest thing to me is that this post about permaband makes way more sense and shows way more self awareness on behalf of the poster than 2/3rds of the posts in this thread :star_struck:

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Tethering is a cancer. The fact that ships can jump in with almost certain invincibility is a joke. This is literally the same thing as garage door cynos that was labeled as an exploit, but for some reason tethering is good design?

I will just have to make as much ISK as possible from bumping before it’s nerfed. My little trick won’t work if a 3-minute timer is enforced.

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So it is:

  1. Microtransactions on top of subscription.
  2. New, social games with better graphics.
  3. Similarity to other MMO titles in its core, stagnation.
  4. Too many awfully rude players.
  5. No females
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