Except none of that negates anything I said. You have a gift for putting a lot of words that sound smart on paper and actually saying nothing on the point you are quoting. You should take up politics if you aren’t already in it, or be a lawyer.
Because dynamic PvE does not need to involve overpowered NPC’s. Drifters, Incursions & ‘Good truesec’ are in fact the exact opposite of dynamic PvE, they are hard coded narrow PvE. Dynamic PvE you don’t see an Outuni and know it has neuts, you simply see a Nightmare or an Apoc, and have to work out what fitting it has by what it has on it by observation. You don’t see a Haven and know what the waves are, what the triggers are and what order to kill things in, you see a random unknown site, possibly comprised of multiple objectives.
Now you still have some information because the NPC’s ships should use player type stats & bonuses, so you know a Nightmare should have energy weapons (except that crazy guy who put rails on it, but well…) and a Raven will have missiles. And you can guess at resist holes & speeds based on common tank & fits. But you don’t know it down to the exact numbers. And that’s a very important idea to get people used to.
But hey, feel free to keep EVE PvE being boring generic hardcoded stuff same as every other MMO, except in EVE we don’t even have the fun of putting together rotations & combo’s for our skills like most MMO’s do, so it’s even more boring than other MMO’s. How dare we suggest that EVE actually do something that would make it unique and challenging.
I largely have come to agree with this. Rewards should scale with difficulty and the amount of organization required to a point, but PvE can’t actually be difficult so players regularly lose or it will be ignored. The largest component of what determines the reward should be the level of risk the PvE exposes you to from the other players given the nature of this game.
Humans don’t like to lose, and since almost all PvE is 100% voluntary in this game, there is no point making PvE that is unpredictable to the point players can fail or that will be ignored by 95% of the players looking for either ISK or the engineering challenge of mastering a scripted encounter.
What really scares me is what this supposed Winter ‘Empire Expansion’ is going to contain. If it is just ‘life-like’ NPCs à la the Blood Raider Shipyards, we are in for a problem. Even more so than most Eve players, highsec players can’t handle losing stuff and if NPC pirates or opposing factions start ganking their ships or fighting back outside of scripted encounters, they are going to go bananas when they lose something. Don’t get me wrong, that probably is more like the game CCP set out to build so long ago and part of me wants to see that chaos, but I can’t see it being great for keeping players. If they make it all optional then it will be largely ignored like the Drifters are as too unpredictable and risky to bother with for most players.
I can’t see a way forward for this expansion, but perhaps I just lack imagination. I am really looking forward to that devblog Seagull promised us this month on the next expansion to see what CCp has come up with.
I agree on the point that it’s other players interactions that bring most fun. I used to run DED sotes in hisec for their competitive nature. It was always a race to get in and clear the site and/or steal the deadspace loot.
I did try a lvl IV mission once and that was enough for me. Missions should in myopinion be more dynamic, not by bringing in daft OP burner type enemies, but rather by varying the enemies, trigger order, goal of the mission etc. It really shouldn’t be too hard to do without making the missions stupidly hard .
I understand what JennASide is saying about mission runners being driven out and that’s not what I want by any means, I’d just prefer a system that isn’t guide driven.
Again, if PVE players wanted that, they’d be PVPrs. It’s BS, if you don’t know what to expect, all you’d ever do is Omni tank and use weapons that are best for switching damage types.
And if you think EVE PVE is boring, it means you aren’t the type that can appreciate it, and how it lets you try weird new things (lie doing lvl4 missions with command dessies, or using smartbomb comps etc). What you think would be a good idea would actually be boring as hell, and unused.
If you make all PVE “dynamic” to fit the idea of ‘not boring’ to non-PVErs (like you) you chase away traditional PVErs (ie most of us) while not attracting new people to PVE, because (again) the people who want dynamic experiences where every fight is different are called PVPrs.
Screw that noise. It’s the same point I made to CCP directly, im they are wasting their time with crap like what think would be ‘fun’.
Even if it doesn’t incur losses, it will probably not be worth it for most people who PVE. Can’t say it enough, of PVE players want ‘life like’, they’d be PVPrs lol. I don’t think CCP or a lot of other companies understand this, CCP aren’t the only ones who don’t understand the minds of the average PVE player.
I’m not afraid to admit I am one, I like knowing what I’m going into when I do a haven, I like learning triggers (that I can shoot when enemy players come in, making a pvp player eat npc agro is the BEST thing about being a PVE player in EVE other than getting away with loot), I like knowing I can experiment with fits will little chance of dying to npcs (I’ve died more to other players than npcs while experimenting).
The time CCP spent (wasted) doing all this ‘improved AI’ stuff could have been spent making pve real pve players like, like when they added the Dread Pirate Scarlet mission, or NPC capitals to some anomalies.
When I nthink of CCPs pve mistakes, I sometimes CCP gets stuck in ‘corporate think’ ie “we need to improve this product/feature to keep it fresh relevant and keep up with what our competition is doing” the same way fast food joints end up adding crap to their menus trying to be hip.
I have the same attitude to them as I have to CCP, wen I want a burger I go to a burger joint and I don’t care that you are now selling those hip ‘signature salads with siracha sauce’, I want a damn burger. And when I want PVE I want simple and easy to kill NPCs and predictable scenarios (most pve players can’t admit this btw), when I want surprises I’ll go PVP.
There is nothing wrong with this. And you understandably might not want it to be more like PvP, but PvErs who like it more engaging and challenging might appreciate the efforts. i say: Down with risk averse farmers!
I don’t know what it will mean for tinkerers like you, but i’d wish that you just keep tinkering. plus, it is doubtful CCP wojld stop using faction resist/ammo. Removing the omni-tank “strategy” would likely improve ship combat on a more individual level.
I always say: fit for your target, which of course also means: know your target in advance.
That’s the point, you CAN’T tinker with ‘dynamic pve’. Eventually, you end up setteling for some Omni tanked “ready for anything” fit and a small selection of ships (like what happened with wormhole pve, burners, incursions, mining fleets, BR sotoyus etc etc). It’s not more challenging, it’s more boring. And it will go unused.
Look at dotlan and see where the NPCs are bring killed. EVE pve players are running missions, anomalies and complexes that have mostly been around since 2004 while actively avoiding most of the ‘improved’ PVE CCP has added since 2009. I’m not arguing against ‘better pve’, I’m saying that CCP should not repeat the mistakes they made in the past.
CCP made changes to the game that they thought would attract more people or retain those who tried EVE. Because of some shaky assumptions, that has mostly failed. People asking for ‘dynamic’ PVE are asking CCP to repeat those mistakes, by failing to actually look at what people do instead of listening to what some say.
You’re a PVP player right? What would you say if I were to suggest that somehow PVP should be more like PVE? That would be dumb right, because they are different things, and if one like PVP there is no guarantee they’d like PVE right?
Well, it’s the same here. CCP has added lots of more “pvpish” PVE and yet none of those features are popular with large numbers of PVErs (they screamed for group content but according to CCP Quant Incursions don’t draw more than 1.5% of players on any given day). Who knows how much time CCP has wasted on things like Drifters and Drifter Incursions and NPC mining ops no one screws with when they could have just added more stuff we’d actually like and use.
1 - Too much change to quick - a lot of older players have bee hit hard financially by the changes (ingame) - and there is a lot of frustration there.
2 - The politics of HS have become very strange, ganking is almost non existent. More and more players are hugging HS because they feel like null is closed to them unless they sacrifice personal autonomy to join a major corp and there are so many Citadels now that every system feel so crowded and and the scanner in major systems can be filled with dozens or citadels just a stones throw from major trade hubs.The mechanics of LS are also very difficult unless flying in a fleet at all times or a fast ship. There is no life in LS except as a pirate or FW.
3 - Null sec is dull because while the empire and sovereignty may change it is the same list of a few thousand players that dominate that region of space. Honestly WH space is the only glimmer of hope for me because there are truly equalising mechanics that make it a much more level playing field for pvp and serious ISK making. Someone can easily get in and out with relatively low SP and only a moderately well equipped ship and make a few bucks without ever even being seen as long as they know what they are doing.
Overall though I am quite happy with the changes - it has made the game more accessible and I think a lot of it is just that there are older players that are being forced to adapt to mechanics that no longer favour their play style. I think the PLEX changes are positive even if it has affect prices a bit, but the way it is setup it provides an opportunity for entry into the market without the need to grind for a year.
It is baffling how CCP still don’t shows signs to have learned this. PvE is like a jigsaw puzzle; the result is certain, and there’s an optimal way to reach it, but there are endless ways to assemble the pieces. I think that PvE players have shown enough evidence that they’re happy solving jigsaws as long as they’re rewarding and get a few new ones each now and then.
But CCP apparently is trapped in a double mental cage: as company they don’t like that players like “dungeon” PvE, and as developers they act as if level designing was not glamorous enough.
Even now that most PvErs are gone, adding new missions would spike the PCU. And yet that’s exactly the last thing CCP will do even if they ever release the supposed Empire space expansion they just removed from EVE updates last week.
I was talking about all customers, because right now every relevant group has people complaining.
This was to illustrate a possible mindset. Shown by burned out, long term players who primarily log in to socialize with their internet spaceship buddies while doing some less demanding activities on the side. Those people became sheep on purpose (in contrary to those that were born or raised sheep) and there are a lot of them, way too many to feel comfortable with.
It all depends on the definition of content and on the point of view. Two fleets meeting somewhere and having a fight is content. Who is generating it? Isn’t everybody involved providing content in some way? Does it even matter who is responsible for things happening? Or do you only count original content as such?
It could even be said that we all are providing content in-game as long as we are doing anything else than staying silent and docked.
The main difference is that you know the likely outcome for one and only think you know for the other. And NPCs don’t complain as much when shot - as least not yet.
Who is gone? You do realize that the vast majority of us is doing something PvE related from time to time and that Isk influx form PvE activities is on an all time high?
You mean RNGsus will suddenly hotdrop a capital fleet into your lvl4 mission? I’m sure that is what people are waiting for.
If you go against another player you kinda expect to lose the ship. While you obviously try to not whelp your most expensive stuff into an overwhelming enemy but certanly try to pick fights you can win, there is always a possibility of random thirth parties suddenly showing up or the target actualy being a trap.
I think we can all deal with this if the source is the chaotic emergent events of the players in the sandbox. I don’t think anyone would think it is fun if the source was RNGsus.
Escalations are fairly random in high sec, that means they can get you to low sec or high sec, or they can give you random, good rewards. I have talked with some players and they think its a lot more interesting than doing the same missions for n’th time. I think the same.
was “players don’t use…” the actual response given? If so then somebody is failing hard at root cause analysis. Yet again.
I mean who doesn’t want to risk a 2-3B isk carefully optimized ship with a non-trivial set of skills for a chance to make some isk? Don’t make any mistakes or you’ll lose your ship. Oh and there’s no guarantee that you’ll be able to run on your schedule or even be able to get to a site. (lol at HS islands). Don’t even get me started on competing for sites.
If you try to run L4’s as a group the personal payout drops dramatically as you add people. May as well just run L3’s and L2’s or – heck – go mining.
I’d be overjoyed for some group capable PVE that didn’t break the bank and was worth running. Sadly CCP seems hellbent on turning HS into a solo player wasteland.
Because people eventually end up to the realization it’s just another shitty computer game pretending itself to be so much fun, when in reality, it’s not.
It’s essentially a sci-fi themed chatroom extended to Second Job Simulator level, filled with people constantly deceiving themselves on what an actual fun and wholesome activity is.
And so, they go on doing something with more real and added value in their lives by spending less of their leisure time staring at this on their screen, as they do pretty much the same stuff during their workday, and would be plain sadomasochistic to continue on with it.
OP, I think many of the issues you raised are not as easily dismissed as you implied. So I’ll give my thoughts.
There has been a lot of tinkering with existing features, but no new game play introduced – or EVEN DISCUSSED. Players who have been in Eve for a long time have nothing to look forward to.
The overwhelmingly Null centric focus of CCP (supported by the CSM representation) means players in HS, FW, LS & WH feel unrepresented.
The “players control everything” mantra may be noble, but it typically just means the powerful groups become more powerful.
SP injection has made longevity much less important. How many veterans maintained subscriptions because it was the only way to accrue SP. Now they go ahead and lapse because if they decide to come back they can buy into the ship they want to fly. Likewise, new players can buy into their end game ships quickly rather than developing the patience the game used to reward.
CCP senior management has lost interest in Eve, and they prefer to hire interesting/artistic people rather than people with solid gameplay design experience.
Casino Banning has led to the death of independent funding for bloggers and content drivers who added interest and buzz to the game.
was “players don’t use…” the actual response given? If so then somebody is failing hard at root cause analysis. Yet again.