So how do you explain the continuous growth that Eve enjoyed for the best part of a decade? A decade when the purveyors of player driven content were arguably more active than they have been for some time.
The war on bots is a necessity, without it the economy would resemble that of the Chinese server, Serenity. The ISBoxer changes were a matter of balance, being able to broadcast to multiple clients with a single keystroke was massively overpowered, both in terms of the economy and as a force multiplier.
It’s an old game designed to appeal to a very specific audience, that audience in general is getting older and has other responsibilities which impinge on their play time; that’s not to say that some of the younger gamers out there don’t fall into the demographic that Eve is aimed at, but the majority of their peers appear to prefer a different kind of game, games without full loot mechanics, games where being the villain is forbidden etc.
So many cries about ganking. It’s sad. Truly sad, really. I can think of so many players that constantly have to “adapt or die”. Tell me, when was the last time one of your pve activities was nerfed and you had to adapt or die?
“Oh no! Fighter damage was nerfed!!! My carrier ratting isn’t as efficient!!”
The point is that WE have to adapt around CCPs nerfs and have proven that even with nerfs we can still get the job done. Want to know why? We love it! We love ganking! The loot, funny kills, and sweet tears!
Look at all of it in this thread. It’s truly pathetic. What a joke.
The issue around ganking is that the ‘counterplay’ boils down to ‘don’t be there to be a target at all’ which given there are choke point systems amounts to needing to simply log out, or to ‘you need an alt account to play this game’ which still doesn’t really stop you getting ganked since they can just gank the alt as well if they really want to get you.
This isn’t to defend the people who would still be targets no matter what the system is, but there are serious systematic issues around being ganked in EVE, relating to CCP’s design philosophy for industrial ships where they have taken their inspiration from the wrong sources, looking at modern industrial equipment rather than looking at industrial/engineering equipment used during actual times of conflict. For better sources of inspiration I would recommend the WW2 engineering vehicles, WW2 bomber convoys, and the gold galleons during the era of sail & piracy. Then create a system around that sort of idea which gives gankers longer to gank someone but lets them fight back and feel they had a good time, instead of blinking and being dead.
Sure some people will always fail fit and die, and some people will always rage, but the base system could be massively improved.
You know that unless you’re just sitting in a thrasher ganking pods, shuttles, and shitfit frigates any ganker will have to use alts.
From T1 haulers to Freighters & Jump Freighters people are multiboxing 1, 2, 6, and 10+ accounts to do what they do. I’m not saying that it should be an absolute requirement to play this game and have multiple accounts, but we use a lot of resources to do what we do.
That said you’re flying a fat, slow, expensive ship that produces an expensive killmail and oftentimes nice loot. If you don’t want to lose it, take proper steps to increase your chances of survival.
Right, because then and only then will players be able to properly fight off gankers. I will say it again but in a different way: until CCP makes ganking literally impossible, gankers will always adapt to changes and nerfs to get the job done.
As long as there’s potential profit to be made ganking will be here to stay. I promise you that we as players have learned to adapt or die much better than any other group or activity in eve… there’s just no hope for you.
Where did I say anything about not wanting people to be able to gank.
The issue is that the system is not fun for the target, not that the target gets ganked sometimes.
It’s too fast & once a gank starts they have basically no input, which results in the player having a blink and they’ve missed it death, rather than 60 seconds of heart pounding adrenaline as they activate their freighters defensive guns trying to clear at least one tackle, overheat the prop mod and burn for the gate despite the webs (Ok at a crawl still but hey, better than no prop mod). Chances are they die anyway unless something else happens in that 60 seconds (or 2 minutes or whatever) but at least they got to fight, and have enough time to comprehend what is happening and respond.
Attack, seriously, more like expressing that they are no different to the people they complain about, they could still can flip, it is a bit riskier than it used to be and they don’t because they are risk averse. If pointing out something like that is bias then you need to think a bit harder.
I have an opinion, Eve is supposed to be a hard game with consequences, but in some areas that is not the case, and I am biased for pointing that out, well I am biased then.
Sometimes things happen because of things you did or didn’t do. This applies to ganking well because you are right: once you are being bumped there’s not a whole lot that can be done unless you are immediately prepared for that situation (which is an option: being proactive).
I don’t think dying in your expensive ship carrying god knows how much in loot is going to be fun even if you get to pewpew a little at some internet badguys. I also don’t think these bad players really need rewarding or any kind of a carrot on a stick.
Besides ganking empty freighter for fun (which does happen sometimes, but isn’t very common anymore. Like literally 1-2 people do it now and they don’t play a ton) most of your gank victims are pure idiots that make it too profitable or too easy for gankers. Why do you feel sorry for them or feel compelled to give them interesting gameplay?
There is a large difference between someone being bad and someone not knowing the exact price point the gankers decide it’s worth their time.
There is basically no way to make a freighter or industrial not profitable to gank if you want to actually use it’s cargo space under the current system. The only question is how profitable and if there are other better targets near you.
As for why I want to give them interesting game play, because EVERYONE should have interesting game play. Because it’s simply better for the game to engage people. If they take a couple of tackle with them they will feel they achieved something on their side as well, if they take the right tackle they could even survive because they knew how to manage their cap, overheat at the right moment etc.
This sort of engagement is exactly the sort of thing people should be wanting to encourage.
And if pilots truly are bad and fail fit, well then, that’s on them.
What do you think will happen to a player that like super-super excited that he can pop some catalysts with his nifty combat freighter? He’s going to die and then think how ■■■■■■■ pointless it was. He died anyway.
He’s going to feel that it was actually a fight, that he had some influence on the outcome and that maybe if he teams up with a second freighter they might even survive next time if either gets attacked, since the concord timer would be long enough that player guns would make a really significant difference, not just the current 15-30 seconds we get of which the first 5 at least are normally lock time.
Sure, some will still rage anyway, no matter what you give them, but those aren’t the ones I’m caring about. The ones I’m caring about are the ones who just get unhappy because CCP is failing to create interesting and engaging gameplay for both sides.
I’m sitting here specifically saying the gank timer should give gankers longer, (Which incidentally makes a lot more ships viable for gankers since tank potentially matters, which makes it much harder to spot gankers on Dscan), and I’ve advocated for the ‘deathray’ approach for Concord which removes spawning lag making things like smart bombs viable again for ganking also.
So on topic as to why people have quit in the last two years. Your last post perfectly makes the best point on the primary topic I ever could. The black & white adversarial nature of the current player base. And I don’t mean the characters in game, I mean the actual players. It’s become far more ‘us or them’ with no shades in the middle. That’s not just an EVE thing, society in general has become more polarised due to a number of influences, which has lead to a general decline in MMO’s. Again not just EVE but MMO’s in general are declining.
Drawing from my previous reply to this thread - EVE was much more of a social game back then. People did things together instead of brining an alt and playing half-solo. Hell, I remember doing missions together. Does anyone do that anymore? I remember when Teinyhr a wee lass who had amassed enough wealth to buy a battleship - we had something like 5 corpmates ESCORT IT from the market hub to our missioning system. That sounds utterly ridiculous today, but nobody batted an eye back then.
Before I had even joined my first corp I was a newbie who had heard that Amamake was dangerous but went to take a look nevertheless. Big surprise, I got blabbed in about 15 seconds after jumping in. Instead of extracting my tears and posting lulzy local chat anger around the web, one of the pirates (think his name was Jackhammer something? It’s been about 11 years…) reimbursed my Stabber, and even came to high-sec to spar with me in jet-can duel (way before we had this fancy schmancy duel system) , giving me pointers on how to play better, reminding me not to fly what I can’t afford to lose etc.
Things like that kept me playing. EVE was a ruthless game, sure, but it was not heartless.
Nowadays, it just feels things like this do not happen anymore. Its all about “harvesting tears and lulz.” About the new moon mining change, I’ve heard people actually complain that they now “have to include industrialist in their alliances” and can’t get free ISK so they can only PvP. IMO the hatred against a couple of playstyles in this game has turned to ludicrous levels. And it is strange, since we need these playstyles or the pew-pew will eventually grind to a halt.
Ok that part went a bit off topic, I guess… Anyway, today like Robocop up there gives an example, people can play this game solo if they want to - in fact people are often encouraged to play solo - and it has not helped the game at all. People do not get those same “magical” experiences of fulfilling social interaction anymore, and they eventually leave. This is also why forcing people in to large null blocs might infact hurt player retention - you are not a person, you are cattle. “Fly this or gtfo”, you have no self-determination and your leaders treat you like you are nothing. Again, fulfilling social interaction is diminished and people leave.
Obviously all of this just my speculation and incredibly simplified, the issues are far bigger and complex.
For all those whining about how hard it is to gank people nowadays. Grow a pair and get out of high sec.
I think the jump fatigue changes went too far. I think the principle is good but it does utterly cripple movement in and around regions. It encourages stagnant gameplay close to where you are based.
As an example. A baddie fleet is reported in our region. Do we form and take the jump/titan bridge to meet them? Not if there is a CTA in an hour because then you’d have fatigue. So no, you stay docked and hope they come your way.
Most large capitals battles only happen when both sides have capitals staged nearby. There is no third partying. A lot of capital pilots left the game because of that. And a lot of them have many alts.
Fozziesov also has its problems. I love small gang fights but too often entosising is not contested and when it is you only have to be jammed out to lose any progress. It means that griffins and falcons are your best defence.
The citadel mechanics are a joke. Asset safety? Timers a week apart? How about fighting for your stuff and putting everything on the line?
Each one in itself is not a good reason to leave. But cumulatively? People still want fun in the hour or three they have to play. So yeah, I can see why a lot of null secccers are inactive or unsubscribing at the moment.
Lots of “fights” come down to what took place before the “fight” even started. Look at the pilot in a carrier fit for ratting. He didn’t equip himself with a cyno, doesn’t have intel channels open, and isn’t aligned to a safe, POS, or Citadel (and is likely watching Netflix). This pilot finds himself being bumped by a BLOPs gang. There are enough Widows on grid to keep him and all his fighters perma-jammed. This pilot dies and probably didn’t have any fun at all.
You can draw similar parallels to a freighter that dies. - There are public intel channels that are actually very good at reporting known bumpers, gankers, ship & cargo scanners.
There are tools you can use to see if there is current or recent ganking activity before you embark on your journey.
You can use a webber to fling your freighter into warp.
You can try your hand at counter bumping with your own alt in a bump mach (this is not easy, but a skilled bumper can pull it off. Source: I am a skilled bumper and I have managed to bump my freighter into war despite 2 other bump machs trying to keep me unaligned)
You can keep your value under 5b and equip Bulkheads (this will be a turnoff for Miniluv, who is the largest ganking threat right now. Source: there’s only like 2 people in CODE that gank freighters).
You can actually gank the bumper(s) (Source: I’ve had bump machariel gets ganked before)
The counter-play is there. Some of it happens before you undock and other methods are just having the resources to protect yourself when you happen to haul irresponsibly and make yourself a nice target.
I am not saying that freighter pilots are allowed to have fun. I’m just being realistic in that it’s not going to be a fun thing unless you are afk doing something else or you never die.
Also I totally misread that “fallacy bingo” thing… I thought it was a game! Googled it and best thing I found was this : Fallacy Bingo - but not what I ASSumed.
I think you should all un-install EVE right now and continue with your verbal diarrhea on this forum. It’s great, it’s just noise, means absolutely nothing. Don’t reply to me and generate even more junk on this forum. Do something useful:
send me all your stuff in-game to this character (contracts are accepted) I will sell all in Jita, buy skill injectors and skill me up to fly a Carrier, my null sec alliance demands it.
Especially those who quit already and continue reading those idiotic posts. Again: send me all your stuff now ! I have no time to lose, a war is going on and they need me.
The first few corps are why I stayed with EVE, but now there’s no fun to be had that I can find… Corporations either push too much or get passive aggressive for whatever reason.
Unsuccessful at everything gave me an autocannon coercer years ago and I finally took it out and killed something with it, but I don’t think he’s even around anymore to show. I just fly around, look at my pi and find something else to play.
I’ll give you a “theory”. Because this “game” is ■■■■, to put it bluntly. Not to mention that it’s a ridiculous understatement. It’s only a matter of time. People LOVE playing with a ball in a cup vs playing Skyrim. Who wouldn’t?! What’s wrong with you!? The competition is settling in nicely. And once it’s where it needs to be, EVE will stick out like a sore thumb of obsolescence to the point where even the dumbest of the dumb “gamers” will see that choosing between EVE and the competition is like choosing between oral from Cameron Diaz and getting shot in the knee.
Googled it and best thing I found was this : Fallacy Bingo - but not what I ASSumed.