[ARC] Triglavian Eugenics

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
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I was discussing Triglavian attitudes and motivations towards baseliners with Ilm Gaterau, I have spent a lot of time studying the remnants of Jovian and other precursor cultures with my colleagues and countless hours studying what we know of the Triglavians. It appears that Jovian and Triglavians come from a similar era, although from different haplogroups and each haplogroup has, or at least had a number of Clades. In nature a clade would be a mutation from the base haplogroup, with these folks it probably a deliberate selection or even some advanced form of CRISPR editing, we use similar techniques to repair particular conditions or damage. With the Triglavians they test each one to destruction, possibly trying to avoid the Jovian Disease. Baseliners are mostly an unknown quantity and therefore not even worthy of consideration.

This propensity for genetic manipulation is a form of systemic eugenics. It may even precede the Abyss, not evolution so much as development of the species as they saw fit. I think in the Abyss they probably tried to design changes that would help them survive but everything we know about the Jove suggests they did it too. Developing particular clades that they stuck with.
These guys might even have sabotaged the Jovian genome repository and that’s what led to the Jovian Disease. The sites we label Talocan in Anoikis are containment and quarantine facilities. One way to accomplish CRISPR editing is viral infection. So it is possible that they infected Jovians in order to test their results and maybe develop cell cultures to pollute the Jovian genome; biological warfare of the most heinous kind and banned by all the Empires as far as I am aware. It looks very much like we are dealing with a group that feel theirs is the only way to progress as a civilisation, and may have committed genocide in the past. They have shown interest in Augmented Foreign Narodnya but as guinea pigs for experimentation? If we look at the Rogue Drones, for example, they see some of the higher forms being worthy of testing but the lower ones are just vermin. Is that how they see baseliners? The pro Triglavian capsuleers are simply an angry mob, blinded by some idea that they are far superior to baseliners and deserve to rule the cluster. They may also be the first on the dissecting table. That is something ARC cannot tolerate. We have always lent assistance in humanitarian aid efforts, assisting our allies and affected baseliners alike.
Triglavian society for all they preach their 'Flow of Vyraj is a society based on eugenic racism in effect. From the way they approach things I would say they don’t care what happens to the baseliners, or even the capsuleers they so freely use. The invasion appears to be resource motivated and nothing else, spurred by surveillance on our capabilities and the minimal risk the Drifter seem to present. That might well bite them on the ass. There are rumblings in Anoikis and it does not bode well.
This society seems worse than big brother. Forget about state surveillance, all their folks seem to be monitored by a Koschoi big cheese at an infomorphic level and some kind of mechanical overseer that checks the old rule book before proceeding. As well as having authority to say ‘Game Over.’ From the sound of it the Narodnya might not even have clones. If they mess up they die.
Even to the extent that entire clades might have been wiped out because they did not come up to scratch. I think the majority of the pro Trig movement are motivated by a desire to break the state and greed. They all refuse to see how the Trigs are. ARC always will stand for freedom and respect for all, we try and remain open to communication but when that fails we are able to act positively for the good of everyone, capsuleers and baseliners alike. Even against CONCORD, as has been proven in the past. What communications we have received from the Triglavians have been information they chose to give us and by their own semiotic analysis are they damned. They have refused meaningful discourse and for a seemingly advanced civilisation they show a somewhat retarded reluctance to even learn our language, perhaps that too is a measure of the disdain they show for our society.

In service of all, Annisir Kaugan, IKAME, Arataka Research Consortium.

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Have you and Arataka Research Consortium given any thought to what the Triglavians might be able to use the numerous POS still anchored in space for?

The POS make for very convenient places from which the Triglavians can monitor New Eden from as well as a place for Kybers to conduct research into becoming more like their Masters without too many people noticing.

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Speaking as someone who has been fighting the Triglavian menace since day 1 of the lastest phase of invasions:

We know almost nothing for certain about internal Triglavian practices; all of this stuff about “eugenics” is no more than speculation at this point. When rallying people to fight the Collective, let’s focus on their confirmed crimes, like their destruction of stars and indiscriminate massacring of civilians, rather than tenuous, unconfirmed accusations.

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Ok, so… just to pump the brakes here a bit… and keep in mind, I think this is on balance some really good work, but it relies on a few assumptions we really shouldn’t be making just yet…

First, I’m not really sure you can rely on the natural sciences usage of ‘Clade’ in this situation. The Trigs have been gone for… millenia? centuries, at the very least? And we know from their statements relevant to time that their linguistic drift is enough to render not only our translators, but theirs… clumsy, and stilted. Or perhaps they just want them to be. So I’m not sure that we can rely on ‘Clade’ to in any way be connected to genetic drift or mutation here. It could just be the way the translation software’s reconciling a term for ‘subdivision’ in a cultural sense.

Yes, we know they use mutaplasmids. However, we don’t know how that process began. It could be connected to eugenics programs… or it could be the equivalent of convergent evolution in language and technology.

Similarly, we still haven’t seen anything that could be considered their ‘society’… only communications and production facilities that could all be part of a massive military infrastructure. I don’t think, at this point, that we know enough about them as a society to draw conclusions about how they look at baseliners.

With that in mind, I don’t think we can really say that their society is based on eugenic racism. For all we’ve seen, it could also be based on self-actualization and overcoming challenges to become the best version of yourtroika.

For all that, though, every one of your cautions against the assumptions made by the ‘Kybernauts’ is completely accurate… I just think you need additional ones against the assumptions made here, as well.

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And, even if Triglavian society is based on something like eugenics, that’s not necessarily bad or evil. The Abyss has limited resources and can only support a limited population. The Collective must choose who lives or dies somehow, so having a specific standard may be a preferable approach in that situation. If the Triglavians decided to continue applying eugenic ideologies to themselves or to conquered populations even after no longer being constrained by the resource and population limits of the Abyss, the situation would become far more concerning.

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Its my measured opinion based on hundreds of hours of consideration of their messages and actions so far. It stands as it is.

They have a very narrow viewpoint. Unwilling to accept anything outside their vision, or approach to the techniques of managing a society. It all has to be proven by repeated testing. That is in essence how mathematicians prove theorems. Unlike others on this communications system I am not claiming some inner knowledge of their motivations. I am saying that having studied them extensively and having had long experience of similar situations , considering their actions this is how I feel they view the inhabitants of New Eden in general. I’m willing to be proven wrong but that is down to the Triglavians opening up meaningful dialogue, with the Empires and maybe even CONCORD.

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Is this an official ARC statement ? or you’re personal idea ?

(( very nice ideas :slight_smile:
it is OOC or IC, the fiction portal is sometimes a bit blurry on this line ^^))

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Did you mean: K-Space powers

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As it stands, no, it isn’t an official ARC statement. However, Mr. Kaugan is one of our researchers, so I do respect his experience and hypothesis in this matter.

If anyone has any questions regarding ARC statements, it would be best in the future to contact me directly.

Lasairiona Raske
ARC Head of PR and Diplomacy

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Respected Annisir Kaugan

Thank you for this interesting viewpoint. It adds another intriguing perspective, even though our concept of eugenics or clade might be inappropriate in terms of the Triglavian understanding and rational. We are trying, after all, to find our own well informed understanding in order to eventually move towards the meaning of what’s happening to New Eden as seen from their perspective.

I would like to add the observed abductions and environmental experimentation facilities to your approach. As far as I am aware, these abductions are primarily interpreted as a) a test bed for mutaplasmid or other experiments on human bodies or, more specifically, b) as a possible program to adapt human baseliners to the effects of stellar manipulation (surviving the abyss, even?). The eugenic perspective seems to incorporate these abductions very well. But why the baseliners then?

Regarding the Jovian Disease, I am not so convinced. It seems like a long shot and we heard nothing about a present Jove - Triglavian relationship. A common history seems widely accepted, though. However, I would not discard your idea completely at this point. As Arrendis said, their society is exposed to a very, very limited extend so far.

Sincerely,

Haria Haritimado

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A very good point Morgana Tsukiyo. The Triglavians avoid wormhole space, I have extensive contacts within groups that spend a lot of time in wormhole space. In two and a half years no explorer, or Signal Cartel pilot, has ever encountered one. There was one report of a Triglavian wreck which we managed to track down to an ill-advised capsuleer. I myself have spent many days in wormhole space examining the relics of the past we find there and while I feel there is a connection there is nothing we could identify as modern Triglavian.
We do know that both Drifters and Sansha have extensive wormhole facilities, some of which are in places we cannot reach. I have an ongoing project which may glean some light on those, but I am sure that is the reason the Triglav avoid it.
Filaments have been found throughout Null and Low security space as well as K-space, these appear to have been planted by agents but the Triglavians themselves have been reticent in their activities in Null. This is probably due to not wanting to escalate the situation and preserve what appears to be a limited supply of capital class ships.
Analysis of the current invasion patterns is still very much a work in progress. There appear to be three major strategic objectives being pursued. The first is the establishment of foothold or beachhead systems, much as with their first assaults on our communities. These seem aimed at both resource extraction and building towards military focused industrial complexes. The second is designed to disrupt the flow of trade between Amarr and Jita, which is vitally important to the economy of New Eden in general. The third, is very serious, and we can see this by examining the clusters of systems they have either attempted to secure, or actually secured. They all lie on major routes between the inner Empire controlled spaces and the outlying Null security level regions. They are systematically trying to starve us of resources to fight to fight them and keep our economy growing. A reasoned military approach and part of any classical study of military operations.
They are not negotiating, or at least no such approaches have been reported by the authorities.

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Then maybe the [ARC] tag could be misleading. Given the weight of ARC, I think it would be fair and objective to make the distinctions clear between personnal opinion and officials statement like Mr Anteovnuecci did.

On the rest of this text, it seem that Mr Kaugan has pretty much made is mind on the collective, I can only agree with what Ms Haritimado said.

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I wouldn’t necessarily attribute benevolent intentions to the Triglavians bioadaptation experiments on abducted New Eden citizens.

They could simply be assessing the value of those citizens, compared to the costs of replacing them.

I.e. they assessing if it would be cheaper to adapt&assimilate those people into the collective (With or without consent), as opposed to simply extirpating and replacing them with native Triglav citizens.

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Assuming there are that many citizens available.

Drifters picked up bodies because they (most likely) needed the biocompatible mute hybrid drones to pilot their ships, (likely) because they are mostly an infomorph society that copy-paste profiles to do their thing outside virtual constructs, where the original profiles remain stored.

As i have no idea what a Triglavian body is made of so far. or at least how much meat there is in it, besides the consense on the trinity nature and majority decision making. (I can only wonder what is like to have two voices at the back of your mind talking all the time, or is not even a mind, but a board that all three look at from above and move pieces within? I digress).

But a thing came to my mind.

What if the suit provides the terminal of operation necessary for interaction with the world, as much as the survival parameters to exist in their star changed worlds, but without mutaplasmids? (The suits are available to our cluster anyway and we wear it without apparent issues).

Consider for a moment that what is going on is not eugenics, but a citizenship application. Not one defined by place of birth and not one defined by the blood of those who mixed their fluids, but one that accepts anyone as long as the trials are complete (not unlike many rites of passage from our cluster).

That would put a different light at the situation and perhaps change some of the conclusions from OP and opening questions as to “How exactly do they expand as a Collective”.

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I’m in the middle of compiling a report on the technicalities of my assessment as people appear to incapable of a clear vision on the matter. As far as mutaplasmids go they are an industrial agent, they are able to modify the properties of certain materials. I own a number of the suits and the reported residue is trace amounts commensurate with the processes involved in harvesting the material. There does not appear to be any suggestion that the Triglavians use them to modify themselves or others.

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The fact they do not appear in W-space now does not mean they avoid it.

Triglavians call their ships tactical troika and classify them in a certain numerical order according to size.
Damavik - 3-tt, Kikimora - 9-tt, Vedmak - 81-tt, Drekavac - 243-tt, Leshak - 729-tt, Zirnitra - 2187-tt

Those numbers written in ternary code reveal a pattern: 10, 100, 10000, 100000, 1000000, 10000000
Number 1000 is missing from the pattern, its 27 decimal.

There are subclades responsible for those ship designs, i.e. Damavik subclade, Vedmak subclade etc. The subclades compete to be accepted as the only faction ship class design. And we know that some Samovda subclade lost the competition to Damavik to be used as 3-tactical troika.

There is a site in W-space “The Ruins of Enclave Cohort 27” and I think 27 cannot be coincidental.
There are also Oryze Construct, Oruze Osobnyk sites, their names cry out Triglavian language resemblance.

The Talocan are believed to have been migrant or nomad culture. They built Dyson structures around their suns and harvested isogen-5.

So I think Triglavians are the Talocan, altered, adapted, evolved by millenia of life in the Abyss. At least Narodnya part of their society, as the other two Navka and Koschoy give the impression of being an AI, or an artificial infomorph of some sort.

Correct me if I’m wrong but as far as I remember we do not have any evidence of Second Jove Empire interacting with the Talocan, thus assuming that Talocans have anything to do with Jovian Desease is stretching it in my opinion.

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You have clearly missed a few points. I pointed out that there are sites in Anoikis we label Talocan. This is a name given by CONCORD/DED and possibly came from the Jovians. We don’t know if this information is accurate. The information gleaned from the Semiosis consoles mentions a Triglavian- Jovian polity, some kind of shared settlement. The only places anything close to this description exists is certain Anoikis Sleeper sites. In a way you may be along the right lines but we have no idea who the Talocan may have been and whether they were one single group or a number of different groups that employed similar technologies. It is a moot point really. I’m more concerned with modern Triglavians than their origin, and they do not seem to frequent Anoikis., for understandable reasons.

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Yes, I do remember Triglavian - Jovian polity mentioned in those files a couple of times.

Jovians did not know Triglavians by that name though. The name would’ve come up earlier otherwise.

If Amarr people were implanted with Rogue Drone AIs and Capsuleer infomorphs so that everyone had 3 entities in every single body, they wouldn’t be Amarr anymore.

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Given their treatment of stars and the results thereof, I submit that there is no real difference between “eugenics” and their analogue of a citizenship application. Their Proving is distinctly “survival of the fittest” and would seem to be such an application.

The similarities are remarkable.
I would guess that Talocan may have been the ancestors of the Collective, before some event that precipitated a stark change in culture, or perhaps that Talocan may have been a transitional state between an ancient Jovian offshoot and today’s foe.

These people value destruction, clearly. And it’s no secret that some capsuleers also place a high value on destruction. Looking at history and psychology, it is then obvious that many would join the Collective’s efforts, whether to destroy their own enemies, a shared philosophy of “survival of the fittest” or just a plain desire to destroy.

It’s ironic, therefore, that the only separation between the Collective, capsuleers, and baseline humanity is entirely artificial. I do not know exactly why the Collective or the “Kybernauts” have not seemed to grasp this, but it’s becoming more and more clear that their Proving, trial by combat, is the only method of decisively communicating this concept.

To the Collective and to the Kybernauts: Deep down where it counts, we are all the same. We are all capable of the same feats. But we do not wish for these things. Beware the time when all have been backed into a corner with no choice left, because all the efforts and skills and intelligence previously dedicated to building civilization as we know it will then be turned against you.
If you destroy, we rebuild, and we learn, and we fight with even more determination. And one day all of us will be united and you will not be able to move us. And you will learn that evolution is more than just killing off anyone unwilling to fight.

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