A mining operation that potentially could wipe out the entire star system…
Again, scale.
The ammount of ecological and natural disruption our extraction does (where do you think the basic components for the pretty Keepstars come from?) every single day is also quite significant.
We remove CHUNKS FROM MOONS and SHOOT THEM.
Screw gravital influence of biological equilibrium at the planets, right?
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So they’re harvesting the star to build the main reactors they use to power their fleets ?
So, with each star that they manage to harvest, the Triglavian war economy grows in size ?
Well, so much for “we must study this phenomenon” and all that malarkey then.
Then maybe they do are responsible for the already existing pink stars…
Aren’t the stargates all in binary star systems? Wonder what happens to the other star when the first one goes out…
This is a facile argument. That Events X, Y, and Z are also bad does not have any bearing on the fact that event Event A–our present concern–is also bad, and action should be taken. The repeated calls that “capsuleers are evil!” are only a distraction from the matter of the Triglavians. Yes, capsuleers are and can be quite horrible. This is hardly new information. But those of who strive not to be are attempting to put a stop to another horrible thing: the Triglavians. Stop distracting the conversation about the Triglavians by braying endlessly about the same problems that the cluster has always faced. We have a new problem now, and it demands a response, not reminders of other issues.
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Possible indeed, but again, not confirmed.
What if the singularities are keeping triglavian hospitals running, tending to small unadapted non-multiplasmidic triglavian kids?
How would your consciousness be, you possible triglavian kids murderer!
Let us jump at conclusions on the new issues that are infered based on our limited understanding instead of handling the old issues tha remain and are aggravated by our new course of action?
How did i not think of that before ?
Events X Y Z are similar to event A, but A is considered bad and XYZ not, even if all of them operate under the same llogic, but with differente degrees of scale.
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Fighting over resources: one of those things humans do. They’re also doing more conventional resource-stripping.
This is an “Extractive Super-Nexus” resident in the Raravoss VII asteroid belt 4 (and virtually every belt has one of these unless somebody’s blown it up).
I think it’s mining veldspar.
It only seems to be using a single mining device. The design’s interesting, though: it seems to be a (barely?) modified entropic disintegrator unit.
From experience, it doesn’t use this beam to defend itself. Much like our mining lasers, it only seems effective on rock.
Come to think of it, doesn’t that beam from the transmuter to the star have a kind of familiar … hue?
Same tech, different applications, maybe?
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Or maybe they are worried about patching up a gaping wound instead of putting bandages on small cuts.
It is responses like this that make your own comments seem deliberately disingenuous and misleading. The majority of dialogue has acknowledged that these things you described are indeed problems, as does the very text of mine that you quoted, only for you to say immediately beneath that these things that were acknowledged to be bad are seen not to be so. This is not productive discourse.
That these other problems are, in fact, issues of concern does not in any way lessen the concern over a hostile power harvesting our stars. If you feel mining moons and the damage that causes is a problem, it is a simple extension of your own reasoning that should make it abundantly clear that harvesting stars is also extremely damaging to the system and cluster. I am not here to tell you that there are no other problems in the cluster, I am here to agree with those who see the Triglavians invading systems and taking many of the problems you have identified and expanding them to a scale and scope we could not have imagined while adding a host of new concerns into the bargain as a matter of gravest concern.
Ignore these concerns if you wish and at your peril. But do not stand by and shout that we cannot or should not stop the harvesting of our suns by a hostile power because moons are being harvested, or their invasion of our space and killing of our populations because capsuleers are awful, or any other such issues. None of that detracts at all from the dangers the Triglavians pose.
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Excellent observation! And thank you for the pictures.
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Now that we have some tangible evidence of triglavians harvesting the stars, more questions arise - why do they even bother with OUR stars? Stargate network does not include ALL of the stars in the cluster obviously - so what prevents the Collective from harvesting the stars we do not have access to? Or nothing does? Then why are they even here?
As always - each answer only gives birth to even more questions
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Thank you for the time to expand your argument.
What is the biggest issue in this? The star beign harvested or that a “hostile” power is doing so? The answer is important.
My point is that we do the same, it changes the world around us, we just do it in a smaller scale. I am not saying it is inherently bad or good, just that transforming the universe we live in is something familiar to us, and the Triglavians doing it is not necessarily the end of the world, or a hositle action or anything yet. (Sure seems like it)
Back to the first point, what do you think is the main issue, that something is beign done, or that it is not us that are doing it?
Did i say that anyone should do or avoid doing anything? Your existence is yours to play with, go fight the trigs, their supporters, concord, your family, your faction, yourself, or do not.
What i am saying, is that there is a lot of talking about how to properly kill the side that is not liked, and little of how to save those that are in the middle of the cross fire. That some of the weapons used are beyond the current understaning, and that perhaps if there was more observation, things could be learned.
When something is known, it becomes less scary, more tangible, and back to the first point, perhaps ENDECOM could put it to proper use for the native side in a way that does not cost thousands of lives from all the crews and planetary habitants.
So, depending on what is your main issue, a star beign harvested or we harvesting it, there may be very different outcomes for our cluster.
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So, a developing idea.
We, both as capsuleers and as a society living in the shadow (and among the ruins) of the Ancients, are pretty accustomed to using stuff we’re not actually sure how it works. Caldari shield tech’s always been a standout example: we know how to build shield emitters, harden them, reinforce them, and on and on. But we don’t really know how they work. Talocan shield emitters are apparently more common than Talocan physics and engineering texts.
The latest and maybe most terrifying example of this, though, is Triglavian reactors. It’s never been clear how a shipment of zero-point condensate magically produces a singularity, which is then manipulated as needed. We’ve just sort of taken it on faith: construct a reactor housing out of super-strong crystaline isogen, apply zero-point condensate like so, and … poof. Working reactor! Great!
Only, now, we see the Triglavians apparently harvesting stars to build singularities for use in singularity reactors, and we have zero, I mean absolutely no, reason to think they’re suffering zero-point condesate shortages in the Abyss. They’d probably get more of it staying home than invading us. So what’s going on?
Well … we can see the singularity cores being shipped out by small wormholes. What if the formation of just such a wormhole is the last phase of bringing a Damavik, Vedmak, or whatever, online? What if what we’re actually doing when we online a Triglavian ship is calling an existing singularity? And what if the reason Triglavian ships don’t go up even more spectacularly than they do when destroyed is because when containment fails, the singularity promptly gets called away?
I mean, I’m not sure how you do that to a singularity, but we can now see that it’s plainly being done. So the question isn’t whether it’s possible; it’s how it’s happening and where.
Thoughts?
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To keep matters brief, I will address what appears to be your central point.
The issue with this, as I see it, is twofold: Firstly, that it is being done at all. The potential destruction of a star does not bear thinking about. Secondly, the manner in which it is being done involves the violent invasion of populated space and the deaths of incredible numbers of people, combatants and otherwise. The Triglavians want these resources and appear to have no concern for who they harm in acquiring them. The question of evacuations has been raised, and I know some capsuleers are working to assist in those efforts. Others of us, myself included, are doing everything in our power to delay total Triglavian control of the system in order to buy time for those evacuations and stymie further conquest while also observing all that we can to learn of the Triglavians’ methods and intentions.
Thank you for your thoughts, Aria. What you are suggesting seems plausible, to be sure. I do not have a solid competing theory to offer. I would merely play the devil’s advocate and suggest that we are only seeing external, visible workings, and assuming that what we have already seen of other devices applies here. Not to say that these principles are unsound, simply to gesture to the current uncertainty surrounding them.
It is, for instance, possible that these singularities are merely byproducts of what is being done to the star. They certainly look the same as the singularities used to power Triglavian vessels, and while I am inclined to agree with your assessment, it is also possible that those singularities are being used as additional power for the Transmuter itself and are simply being exhausted, with new singularities added to provide further power to fuel whatever is being done to the sun, as for all that is apparently being extracted, the Transmuter’s beam appears to also be firing something into the sun.
I do not offer any of these as more likely alternatives. I am simply considering other possibilities, I suppose. Your assessment has the appearance of validity, but I am hesitant until we have better data, or perhaps some means of scanning the internal workings of these structures to determine just what is happening within them.
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There is a third issue, even more serious than the others. This issue is that God has given all the stars in the heavens to be Reclaimed by his Chosen People, and so sucking away pieces of stars into singularities that are teleported away to some un-Reclaimed place is a grievous heresy.
Shame there isn’t some Omnipotent power that can stop them, eh?
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that’s actually true for everything and everyone living in a high tech society.
Do you know how the nanobots constituting the hull of your pod works? probably not.
and that’s fine.
We don’t need to understand things to make them work.
I personally like to have at least some kind of understanding on how things works.
I’ll diverge for a second on this topic to talk about our “immortality” : to all those who think so highly of themselves that they think they are out of reach of “baseliners”. Don’t forget that’s it’s a “baseliner” that monitor your clones, keep your citadel, ships and colonies running.
Back on topic.
Unless things have that much changed during my two year retreat, we do know how shields works: to keep things simple, it’s a high density plasma field. Those particules and their interactions with a stable WH make the “cloaking” when passing through a connexion.
That’s the reason why it is specialized facilities that handle this aspect of our life. Most capsuleers don"t care if their ship is powered by fusion or fission reactions.
I share your though on the scariness of not being able to oversee exactly how things are done, but it is on of the safeguards concord set in place to control us.
the fact that the BPc can come from triglavian origin only show that they have mastered how WE build things and adapted their own design to our facilities.
for the rest, I agree with Miss Terranova, we simply don’t know yet what, how and where those singularities are used.
a few ideas:
-
it could simply be a kind of “battery”, after all, they are targeting blue suns, they indeed produce large amounts of energy (even or stars) that could :
A/ be beneficial for the star (by stabilizing them, making the triglavian the creators of those pink stars that should not exist)
B/ be dangerous, by destabilizing the natural order the blue stars could go supernovae prematurely -
as Miss terranova suggested, they could be the fuel for the device. a byproduct, etc etc
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the device could alter the mass of the sun to allow a deeper connexion to the abyss, r a connexion to deeper parts of the abyss.
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the device is used to create an artificial environment that would allow the mutaplasmids to survive.
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they are actually stabilizing the most unstable stars of the cluster
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so much other possibilities.
We simply don’t know.
yet.
From a astrophysical point of view, our society and the collective could very well be two faces of the same coin: space faring civilisation using the energy/mass ratio to travel long distance.
let me explain this hypothesis.
- We know that access to anoikis was almost non existant until very recently
- but it was in the distant past.
- we are fairly sure that both our civilisation and the collective’s are based from the same ancestors.
it then possible that the galaxy experience shifts in the gravitational waves, tides if you want.
then a “low tide” would be when the energy/mass ratio (REM) is <0.5 and the wormholes can’t form naturally but deadspace (abyssal or not) is prevalent.
cycling with a “high tide” period where the REM is > 0.5 and Wh naturally occur and deadspace is less frequent.
and that both civilisations evolved to use those “flows”, but not in the same way.
If I let myself be optimistic, the triglavian are just another human civilisation trying to simply exist and it could mean that we, as capsuleers, are in the position to get beyond this rivalry.
If I’m pessimist, the triglavian were locked away in the abyss and they will end the cluster as we know it.
If I’m realist, I would say that I don’t have enough informations and that whatever happen, capsuleers will try to use it at their advantage, regardless of who die in the process…
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@Umbre_Fallenstar can you make an informed guess on the topic of the Collective transportation methods?
The main question of interest is - can triglavians travel between star systems freely or are they limited to the same space we are?
Answer to this may shine some light on the potential scale of their operations and give more weight to some theories about the goals of the Collective. Or even exclude some of them alltogether