ARENA: All previously expressed concerns addressed

Its time for another Arena thread-- Bittervets reheat the old smugtarded rejections. They are rebutted after the tl:dr:

-An arena can be done with minimal loss to the precious ‘sandbox’, and I argue would rejuvenate it.
-Some pvp revamp needs to happen otherwise the downward trend in subscriptions will continue then gl with any pvp whatsoever.
-Create delocalized or even ‘virtual’ arena(s), where one-time-use ships and mods are cheaper.

“this has been proposed many times already”. Yes, Illustrating that there is alot of interest in it.

“EVE is already an arena… just hit undock”. Right, thats all one has to do to find great content. Even if you do find it, adding a dash of sporting contest is what we’re talking about, which rarely exists.

“it will remove PvP from the rest of the universe”. No. One does not preclude the other. Sport is fun; so is hotblobbing random ppl when they least expect it, ganking, baiting, griefing or any number of other shady ventures. They are not mutually exclusive.

“EVE strives to be a realistic type game” Eve is a bastardization of both game and reality, getting neither quite right. But you know what they DO have in reality: dojo’s, tournaments, matches pairing competitors by skill and weight, with arena’s to watch and/or participate in them.

“organize it yourself”. “You can do it already”. No you really cant. Small scale training and local corps pvp maybe. But the amount of time and effort to make anything large scale happen would be beyond most corps’ means. Even if a huge influential eve corp did make the effort to do it, it would be unsustainable: how do the players get to and from some Null or LS locale reasonably quickly and safely? How would you defend the area against the stream of gankers? If you argue that moderatly quick and safe arena transit is not needed, then that defeats the purpose entirely.
If arena is a big CCP feature-- with de-localized arena’s also for those pirates and far-flung null-secers (or it could be ‘virtual’)-- it will become a thing.

“hold the matches on an honor system” Do you actually play this game? One second the argument is arena’s will take away precious whoring, then the next we’re talking about the honor system.

“they have FW plexes for that”. I’ll give the benefit of the doubt and say you havent tried this recently, but that’s not even close to the answer. Sometimes they are not bad, but usually I fly around for an hr+ and consider it lucky to find even a couple mismatch 1v1 fights; usually I get blobbed in the plex.

There is both cake and the ability to eat it with this, and they will feed off each other. I take out bling dreads on sisi sometimes and enjoy it, but that doesnt make we want to ditch the regular server, in fact it motivates me to go play ‘for real’. Outside the arena is where the ‘real’ territory and environment lay. There is no way to make isk or do anything but pvp in an arena. So when Rome built arena’s they gave up on conquering and fighting other civilizations and dissolved the army?

I’ll go one further on arena, and say the cost of ships should be lower for arena use only, and they be one-time use in the arena only. Any one can issue challenges, open or otherwise, under detailed conditions (or not). Does anyone want to see a titan vs 50 bling T3c’s? I do. Big fights can be streamed on billboards at gates or stations.
All skill req’s still apply of course, and there is even more motivation for newbs to keep training and plexing (money cough CCP cough).

Newish or even intermediate players have a major barrier to even medium pvp. Grinding for days or weeks to buy a ship then getting it blown up in 30 seconds doesnt make new players want to stay or pvp. Even space rich players are often afraid to lose their precious bling ships sometimes. I’d love to fly the moros I recently skilled into, but I simply dont have the 2-4b isk to light on fire when on first undock 3 titans show up and melt me. Eve should not just be a game for 10yr trillionaires.

CCP listening to only the entrenched rich elite players is a problem. Go to eve offline and look at avg logons since 2013 (hint, solid downward trend). I know the disciples think they are defending the grail against the tide of superficial insta-gratifiers, but its not entirely like that.
Sorry but this game too often is damn boring and we all know this. CCP trying to save it w pve and expansions will never happen.
Again, its called fun people, and yes [knock knock], this is indeed a game. So even if this does cut in on the outside arena pvp somewhat… is that a horrible thing? So you all just really prefer to cruise around for hours looking for the tiniest scrap of content?
The alternative is making the galaxy smaller and reducing high sec zones as subscriptions dwindle, but this will alienate pvp-averse players and may force them from the game. And you will wind up w an arena anyway. Like it or not, that is the reality.


Look you typed alot of nonsense it must be good right?


Just you saying it doesn’t make it true.

Want space arena go play Star Wars.

-1 EVE is your arena


replies with no backing logic or reason whatsoever: 2
replies with anything resembling good faith debate: 0

lets keep racking them up.


“Just you saying it doesn’t make it true”, and just you saying Arena will kill it also does not make it true. I have provided at least an argument and examples as to why my reasoning could be and is likely true. Where are yours?

No, eve is not an arena, as I’ve described. It is plainly obvious. Lets move beyond mindless platitudes.

Sisi is already a thing.

Well it’s not beyond the large corps means is it? And isn’t that the point?

Basically you can organize any action that’s within the abilities of your group. I fly solo, but I can find a fair 1v1 anytime I want because I’m part of the right channels. If I want to practice just to hulls, fine. If I want a T1 Cruiser fight to the death I can ask for one and get it. Large groups can do similar with other large groups.

It catagorically is there if you can be bothered to find it. If you want free ships to do it in, there’s the test server.

It will kill open PVP, as more players go to this less players would be out and about which would drive more players to the arena, suddenly space is safe because PVPers are all at the arena and the economy crashed because of overproduction.
Hurray you destroyed EVE with an arena.


No, Eve is a sandbox.

Possibilities. Could be’s. Your examples arnt proof. +1 for the work put in. -1 because Eve is an arena already. Every inch you can fly is an arena because people can engage you anywhere anytime. Its just not fitting the pretty, rule set following, click a special button for arena idea you have.

I don’t have to argue with you, you won’t listen to reality, I just vote my -1 which is my right as a player.

Not much new content in your responses, but…

“Sisi is already a thing.” yes it is, I play on it, its fun, but essentially the same thing just cheaper and with barely any players… Its completely different from what is being proposed.

"Well it’s not beyond the large corps means is it? " Yes… it is, as described. Address the underlying arguments supporting how I think it is. "And isn’t that the point? No thats not the point.

“I fly solo, but I can find a fair 1v1 anytime…” wow thats awesome. please share these channels. I would say the majority of us are certainly not in your situation. I’m guessing you are in a large corp and play during a busy time, also spending many hrs schmoozing. on comms, possibly been playing for many years. Thats great, but what about the rest of us?
Lets have a poll: How many players reading this can have a fair 1v1 or Fleet vs Fleet at the snap of their fingers? Speak up.

“It will kill open PVP, as more players go to this less players would be out and about…” Reiteration of already addressed (twice) concern. No one can know for sure if it will or wont. I say it may make a dent, but not kill it, as there are so many things that cannot be done in an arena. Eve is a huge and varied world. This is like saying a football stadium or local baseball diamond reduces crime, other sports, not to mention industry, business, exploration, and mining.
Also, Explain to me how if you want to pvp and it happens in an arena, that is intrinsically worse than the same thing happening out of an arena.
Again, address the supporting argument or be quiet pls. Lets move the ball forward on this debate.

“Your examples arnt proof.” Indeed they are not. And yet again… Do you have any examples or… anything?

“I don’t have to argue with you” No you dont. -1 vote noted, thanks, goodbye.

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EVE is not supposed to be fair. You do not understand the point of this game, go back to WoW if you want a PvE game with optional fair arena fights.

Also, Explain to me how if you want to pvp and it happens in an arena, that is intrinsically worse than the same thing happening out of an arena.

Because one of EVE’s primary design principles is that your actions are permanent. Lose a ship? It’s gone forever, and now an industrial player/corp has to build a new ship (with a whole process from mining up to putting it on the market) to meet your demand for a replacement. Kill the wrong person? Well, they have kill rights on you and might give you a war dec. Having a no-consequences arena means anything that happens in the arena no longer matters to the rest of EVE. And that is not acceptable.

“Sisi is already a thing.” yes it is, I play on it, its fun, but essentially the same thing just cheaper and with barely any players

The fact that so few people have interest in the no-consequences arena PvP that already exists should tell you how terrible your idea is.

It took me about two lines of reading before i came to exactly the opposite of your conclusion that being that this revised proposal addressed ‘all previous expressed concerns’ and was now basically unassailable by us ‘bittervets’.

Your concept is an arena: a concept that inherently runs counter to the core concept of EVE, which is as some call it ‘single shard’, not only does this ‘revision’ fail but i promise you EVERY POSSIBLE ALTERATION, REVISION, UPDATE OR CHANGE will also fail.

It is like having an absolutely totalitarian government and claiming you’ve found a way for everyone to live as he or she individually prefers, it simply just cannot happen and neither can your idea since it runs so counter to the concept of eve, just like personal freedom runs so counter to totalitarianism.

So, stop trying to do or claim to do the impossible and move on.

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“EVE is not supposed to be fair. You do not understand the point of this game” We all understand eve, thanks. The point is to add a moderate amount of fair and sporting fun into a game where there is none. This does not eliminate all the dirty fun. In the world outside (you know, the really real world that you claim eve emulates), there exists things like contests, arena’s and sporting events. There is still crime, cheating, stealing, murder, etc etc. There would be alot more if people respawned magically out of jail or death.

“lose a ship…now an industrial player/corp has to build a new ship…” This is a valid point If the Arena has zero cost ships, which I’m not absolutely advocating. I mentioned reduced cost for one-session use, but that’s optional, and would need to be hashed out. I get its an ecosystem, but industry would not utterly crash, because again, there will still be plenty of non-arena things going on. If it reduces prices, then even better. This means more PvP.

“Kill the wrong person? Well, they have kill rights on you and might give you a war dec” War decs and bounties can be done at any time by anyone. Irrelevant. Maybe you humiliate someone in the arena in front of 2000 ppl and they put a contract or war dec you? Kill rights are a mechanic of mostly hs griefing and ganking, which is not part of anything arena. There are all sorts of no or little consequence pvp’ing that happen in eve.

“so few people have interest in the no-consequences arena PvP that already exists” Sisi is now an arena? Interesting when did this update take effect? Last time I checked people could do the same thing they do on the regular server. There are no guaranteed fair fights on sisi.
People dont play it simply because its not the main server, it doesnt save or update much, and is sparsely populated (trends). Newer players may not even know about it.

Unjustified Arrogance: 'it took me about two lines of reading…" Yes, its apparent that’s how much most of you read before raging off. I never claimed this proposal was unassailable, only that the standard concerns were rebutted. I’ve not seen much response to that yet. It’s like a chess game in which your opponent moves, you move, then your opponent simply keeps making his previous move over and over.

“a concept that inherently runs counter to the core concept of EVE” False. As I’ve argued ad nauseum: if eve is a real world simulator, where are the important things that exist in the real world No one has responded to this.

“revision will fail” Not sure what you are calling a revision, nor what is ‘failing’ This is still the original proposition. If by ‘failing’ you mean facing fanatical resistance by the elite and entrenched. Yes I have no doubt that will continue.

“totalitariansm…” umm, maybe you should just stop now.

How many times have players predicted the apocalypse with every expansion or change? It was going to be the end of Eve when alpha clones happened, but it actually increased subscriptions (at least until ppl realized how fucking boring the game too often is and left). Subscriptions are on the decline, that is fact. There are people who still play everquest, maybe thats you all?
Eve is a unique game and there is no reason to think a properly implemented arena will kill it. If ppl are really that nervous, CCP can implement it on a small scale, and pull the plug if things go south.

I think this all stems from your own inability to network and organize yourself. I get fair 1v1’s all the time because i’m part of the correct channels and actively seek that kind of gameplay. Corps duke it out in mock battles on the test server all the time. If you feel there are barely any players there maybe it’s because you didn’t bring any friends but that doesn’t mean it’s not going on all the time without you.

The sandbox way is better. You just need to become part of it.

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Keno, again, please share these mystic channels. We’d all love to know about them. So your assertion is that most or all players in corps large or small who dedicate enough time and effort get easy and fair pvp like its nothing? And just somehow I and the plain lazy people like me can do it, just by putting in some effort.? Thats the answer your going with? I’ve been part of a few corps large and small, and, uh yea no. Again, how many people out there agree with Keno?? Now is not the time to be shy.

Sisi: I go to the busiest (the only) spot on and its usually around 60 people blapping each other in dreads and titans, simply because its too expensive to do in the real game. Its tons of fun but still as noted, no real fair fights (matters less since its no cost, but we cant have that due to economic fall out) But it’s not the ‘real’ server, with no people doing anything other than crazy pvp. This actually illustrates one of my essential supports which is: people will still want to pvp outside an arena , sisi being a poor proxy for an arena.

And I suppose this opens up a different but related topic, which is game dedication and networking. Even if what you said about the time and effort was so. Some of us dont really have, or want to have, half our lives dedicated to this game as if it is a real job and life: It is not. What if we do have the time and effort, but we’re just not good social networkers and/or have 50 eve friends who want to go to sisi ? Sorry, no good PvP for you… Thats it?

Regardless, none of this really illustrates why an arena would be all that bad.

TL;DR: you still don’t get it. EVE is a game where every action matters and leaves a permanent mark on the game world. Arena PvP, especially with arena-only free ships and fair matches and such, directly contradicts this design goal by creating a space where actions do not impact the rest of the game world. This is not going to happen, go back to WoW if you want that trash.


I already countered this: An arena fight would be about as relevant, or irrelevant, as most other pvp of its type. If its not of its type (‘regular’) then there is no displacement-- you cant gank, gatecamp, grief, hotdrop, bait, ninja loot, stealth-bomb or any amount of other fun shady stuff in the arena.
The only concession would be (optional) cheaper ships, which I believe wouldn’t have huge fallout, but could be experimented with slowly as to not wreck the economy.

You’re simply ignoring my points and reiterating your assertions without any supporting argument, utterly fixated on this concept you have. So yea, TL;DR-- Maybe you should consider L but Did R and actually Consider.

:Two ships encounter each other in null, they shoot it out and one dude gets podded and goes home butt hurt.
:Two ships encounter each other in arena, they shoot it out and one dude gets podded and goes home butt hurt.

:Four ships meet four ships in LS. They shoot it out and someone wins. A few dudes get timers that expire meaninglessly. A few dudes lose some security status which no one cares about since they are pirates. Fun was had.
::Four ships meet four ships in the arena. They shoot it out and someone wins. Fun was had.

The implications you say will !destroy eve! are not very huge. Arena effects would be different, but also possibly just as relevant, as the example I gave last response to this. Last superbowl Philadelphia burned half the city, seems pretty impactful to me. Try to grasp the meta here. An arena is just as much part of the environment as anything else in your precious matrix.

Also see if you can wrap your dome around this: You’re ego vested and fear based assumptions are not self evident. Un-stuck yourself from the simple reassertion short circuit please.

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Then you don’t understand how the EVE economy works. I’m surprised there aren’t more manufacturing players in here telling you to GTFO with your terrible idea. If your arena has minimal effect on the economy it will only be because nobody is using it, in which case why should it exist?

You’re simply ignoring my points and reiterating your assertions without any supporting argument, utterly fixated on this concept you have. So yea, TL;DR-- Maybe you should consider L but Did R and actually Consider.

I considered your idea. It’s a stupid idea that violates basic design principles of EVE. And you’re missing a key element:

Two ships encounter each other and fight: someone dies, stuff is permanently destroyed, demand for new production is created. Potentially one of those ships has a dozen friends and everyone ganks the one solo player, because breaking the rules of an “honorable” duel is fun. Or maybe nobody cheats because they want to keep an honorable reputation, a reputation that means something because it is hard to keep.

Two ships enter an arena: nobody loses anything because it’s all arena-only items. Nobody can cheat because the game mechanics prevent it.

An arena is just as much part of the environment as anything else in your precious matrix.

This is a lie. A player-run arena, as already exists in EVE, is part of the environment because it exists in the same game world as everything else. A separate arena mechanic as you propose is not part of the environment because you specifically set it apart and give it its own rules.

Anyone who’s interested and shows the correct attitude is free to PM me for a few selected channels.

Yes. Literally any time you want to, you can ask your corp mates for a fight. Ask one of your out of corp friends too if you like. If you want to practice fleet stuff (and you have enough friends) you can arrange it with them and meet on the test server or be a man and do it on the real server :slight_smile:

Yes. By networking and arranging things between like minded individuals like yourself. I don’t see what you’re finding so complex about this scenario.

Lets just face it, it’s pretty much everyone in the thread apart from you isn’t it?

You still don’t have any friends do you? You went there alone and expected everyone to drop what they were doing and play with you or something?

It’s not hard to be present in a chat channel, it doesn’t take a lot of effort. Stop pretending everything is harder than it is.

Join a decent corp and if your practice idea has any merit people will come to the test server to do it with you.

All of it does. Your current meta of putting anything anyone says to you in quotation marks (the forum has a working quote function) and saying essentially “No. Go read my wall of text again” is laughable and the only difference between what currently exists now and your idea is that in your new world people will be forced to play with you :rofl: where currently they only have to play with those they want to.

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