Astra House not a good replacement for POS's

(Etheoma) #1

As I see it due to the loss of being able to fit capitals in a astra you are losing functionality, I would suggest adding a service module to allow you to have limited space to put capitals in so they you could fit 5 - 10 capitals this could also be used for the Fort to fit a limited number of super caps.

Because with the POS you could use it to log off your super caps and with a capital SMA you could fit a few capitals, for the Astra to be a good replacement for POS’s you should at least be able to have limited capacity for capitals.

The bonus for the Fort for storing capitals would be two fold this way first you do not need to expect fuel to store them and second you get infinite space. The same bonus would apply for super caps to the keepstar.

The model could be expensive to run and buy furthermore I would make it as just another tab which you can set right to access it, furthermore if there is not space in the capital service tab you cannot leave your capital, so in that way it is almost completely a replacement for POS’s because you can log off in the Astra but if you do not have access or there is no room you will not be able to leave it behind or change ships.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #2

an astrahaus is an approximate replacement for a small pos, I dunno how many capitals your squeezing into your small, but I can guarantee you aint fitting 5-10 in there.

A fortizar is not that much more expensive and can dock an unlimited number of capitals (just not super caps) and if you don’t need any service modules, it won’t even cost you any fuel. that seems like more than a fair trade off.

(Etheoma) #3

But I am saying that it should be a service so you have to expend fuel, and 10 bill is a lot more than 1 bill it’s in fact a order of magnitude difference, so you cannot place them willy nilly on a mass scale or more specifically in WH space where you are on a smaller scale and you might only have 2 - 5 people in a system spending 10 bill on a fort is not terrible viable and I could put down 10 astra’s for the same price.

Sorry busy atm so my spelling might be terrible.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #4

if you own 5-10 capitals at 1-2 bil per hull, then you should be able to afford a 10 bil fort. never fly what you cannot afford to loose. if you cannot afford to replace your capitals you shouldn’t be using them in the first place, and if you CAN afford to replace them, then you can afford the citadel to dock them at.

(Ptraci) #5

You can still make a POS to put your capitals in, for now.

If not, you can always safe-log them with an alt.

If you have a bunch of capitals and you can’t afford the 8-12 billion or so for a Fortizar you are playing EVE wrong and should delete your account

(Etheoma) #6

But for example if you have a farmhole with little or no protection and just want to be able to fold up and go home if someone put’s up a competent invasion I can simply log off in my caps and only lose 1.2 bill plus 1~ bill for the service model.

I really don’t get why you are against this it’s not like I am talking about adding anything to astra’s that were not in POS’s in fact all I am saying is that there should be feature parity which is what CCP promised.

And @Bjorn_Tyrson to really say that Astra’s are a replacement for small POS’s is dumb that may have been what CCP said but it doesn’t really work out does it considering you could not dock super caps in outposts so Keepstars a straight up improvement over those, Forts would be a replacement for outposts and Astra’s would be a replacement for all POS’s rolled into one.

If you are counting functionality that is actually how it would work out, all I am saying is don’t make me go and buy the spiritual replacement for outpots just so I could store a few caps like I can with POS’s.

And fine then if you don’t want to go for 10 caps of space for for 2 - 3 because you could fit a single cap in a regular SMA and if you just didn’t bother with defences you could get 3 SMA’s in a small.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #7

a fortizar is a considerably better force multiplier than even a large POS. if you have 5 caps in your hole (and I would assume pilots for those caps) then IF someone decides to try and evict you (fortizars are a lot more of a pain in the ass to remove than any pos) you could form up 4 carriers and a fax, with citadel support you will be able to hold out against almost anyone who doesn’t have a serious grudge reason to kick you out.

10b is a small price to pay for something like that.

(Coralas) #8

Astrahus can’t moon mine either. CCP promised that citadels will eventually do all the things that poses do, they didn’t promise that one citadel type could do it.

(Etheoma) #9

I would say 3 Astra’s in a wormhole are a better defence than 1 forty just due to the annoyance it would be to kick you out of a farmhole where you are not going to get a massive loot drop is defense enough as if you spread your timers throught the week they have to spend a week and 2 days kicking you out and they have to keep hole control for that hole week or otherwise you can call for reinforcements, but the point still stands that even to be feature comparable to a small POS you should be able to fit at least 3 capitals, and I think you should be able to dock in a Fort with super caps but not change ships.

Edit; btw 2 astra’s and 1 forty is the best option but on a budget 3 astra’s is nearly as good, and you don’t get a 10 bill kill for kicking over your forty, although I suppose 3 Forts would be best but that is a bit much to be sinking into a small corp.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #10

yes, 3 astra’s would be better protection than a fort, but a fort lets you dock capitals. its a trade off. why should you have the increased protection of multiple astras AND the ability to dock caps?

also, a super can tether to any citadel, if you are going to be restricted from changing ships, then whats the difference between that and simply tethering and doing a safe-logoff?

(Ptraci) #11

People used to keep titans in POS maybe Astrahaus’ should be able to dock titans, too right?

No what you are suggesting is that for a mere 500M or so which is what an Astrahaus costs, they can park an unlimited number of capital ships. That is an unrealistic, unbalanced suggestion.

CCP have made a progression of structures - mobile depot which only allows refit and basic storage, Astrahaus (literally “star house”) which allows docking of subcaps and freighters but not capitals or supers, Fortizar which allows capitals but not supers, and Keepstars which allows docking of everything.

Likewise CCP have created a progression of ISK investment. Haven’t you noticed that space is not littered with Keepstars? There’s a reason for that.

What you want is the ability for anyone to dock capitals anywhere.

(Faylee Freir) #12

Remove tethering while you’re at it.

(Etheoma) #13

You could park unlimited super caps in a POS, admittedly you wouldn’t want to as if you were to log them all in at the same time you would star burst them all, but you could do it. @Bjorn_Tyrson point was more valid that it’s not that useful. If you could leave them anywhere now that would be powerful but simply being able to dock would only be useful as a beach head not for permanent residence.

And yes there is a reason why there are not keepstars everywhere and that wouldn’t change because being able to dock is not the same as being able to change ships or leave the super cap behind, for that you would want a keepstar.

And as for Astra’s the story is the same apart from we are talking about caps, and we are not talking about no investment either I said you should have to add a service which means you would have to buy the module, it makes it so there is a mid point between Astra’s and Fortys / Fortys and Keepstars, also this means you have to burn fuel to keep the service operational.

So it is a fair trade off and is and in keeping with getting what you pay for.

Seriously rather than being beddy downers maybe read what I wrote then actually consider it rather than assuming I am wrong from the outset.

Edit; I think I get what I thought you meant, No you should have to have the service to even be able to dock, although that would create confusion about what you could dock in and not, a visual cue on the outside of the cit would do that job though, some kind of large holographic billboard?

(Bjorn Tyrson) #14

we have read what you wrote, and all of us have said it is a bad idea. there is no need for a “mid-point” between an astra and a fort. as you yourself said, an astra is cheaper by orders of magnitude, and as far as asset safety and beachheads go, having multiple astras is better than a single fort.

so if such a module did exist for an astra, even if it cost 2bil. why would anyone ever use a fortizar except for market hubs? it has a smaller vulnerability window, isn’t all that much easier to take down, especially with a cap fleet for defense. and even with a 2bil service module you could drop 3 of them for every fort.

A fortizar gets slightly better defenses, can fit a market hub, and can dock capitals, those are its only major selling points, if you give one of those 3 major points to the smaller station, then what strategic purpose would it serve anymore?

(Ptraci) #15

I disagree but fair enough.

Here’s why: Point defense on the Fortizar. Fighters on the Fortizar. The very real possibility that a capital fleet (with capital logi) could undock at any time from a Fortizar. All of those things make a Fortizar a much more formidable target than an Astrahus.

Now, if you have a fleet that is capable of meeting the 5000 dps cap to take out an Astrahus (which is really only three Vindicators and a few logi ships, for example), taking out 3 or 5 Astrahus is not much more complicated. Just add an extra 40 mins each one. It’s a simple linear progression. Just add time.

If you want to take out a single Fortizar, your fleet needs to be much more complex and risks taking serious losses only from the structure defenses let alone any players and ships that might support it. It’s at least one if not more orders of magnitude more complex of a problem. Simply saying “it just takes 3 times as long because it has around 3 times more hit points” is not true at all.

Me, I’d rather keep my assets in a Fortizar. I’d feel safer.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #16

I agree with you completely, that’s why forts are well worth their price tag. But if you also give Astras the ability to undock a capital fleet lIke OP is suggesting. Suddenly the value to isk ratio shifts. Especially with asset safety.

(Ptraci) #17

If you give the Astrahus the ability to dock capitals you shift value all right. Away from the other structures. So no.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #18

which was exactly my point.

(Martina Conrad) #19

I think something like this is a good idea, maybe only allowing 3 capitals per structure would be more suitable though. Could also solve the upcoming issues of storing supers and titans, maybe a module that allows you to put 1 super or titan into a fortizar at the expense of about 600mill in fuel per month.

(Lulu Lunette) #20

Citadels are awesome.