Just because attributes currently have a function does not mean that this function isn’t pointless for gameplay.
I agree with the thread title that attributes are pretty much pointless in this game.
Skill-based learning could be replaced with base skill training tiers (make it for example 37.5 SP/min, equivalent to training with a 27/21 remap right now) and attributes could be removed with very little impact on gameplay.
Besides skill training attributes are pointless, and for skill training attributes could be deleted and replaced with a system that is less harsh for new players.
Attributes are an amazing tool to help especially newer players. Long term players in general don’t really care or bother with them.
I have told many starting players to use their 1st remap by removing the 2 points from charisma and add 1 point to intelligence and 1 to perception to see their skillque get reduced by days and they are so thrilled about it.
Once they got most of the supporting skills like armor, shield and engineering up to where they want, they can specialize and save weeks as they skill into ships, turrets and/or missiles. And should something come up, they have the bonus remaps for emergency changes.
Exact the opposite is true, as already lined out in this topic.
A new player can remap, but he can’t make up for a veterans wealth that allows him to start every single alt with a +5 Implants clone or the luxury to really spend a whole year in a row only dragging skills with special attribute requirements into the training list.
With all my chars, I can, because I already know all the basic support skills. Which a new player has to fill in between his ship and weapon skills to just get forward in the initial 1-2 years, basically forcing him to train at least 1/3rd of his time on non-perfect attributes.
The system would be much more helpful if newbros and veterans would all skill with the same base speed, no matter which skill is selected - because veterans can choose freely, newbros cannot. And all “boosters” to skillspeed give diminishing returns, based on how many SP you alread have, so while both could use them, vets would have to spend a lot more money for them to get the same results or spend the same and get much lesser results.
It’s great you have your own personal perspective, though it seems to stir up a greater narrative of a capsuleer clinging to their humanity despite their condition. It’s interesting and maybe you can tailor your bio into a story with that premise, but I think ultimately it’s a fight against the undeniable truth.
I also think lore and the time spent learning of it should be respected, not made out to be a waste - as you implied.
I think both perspectives are correct at various points in the capsuleer lifecycle. There’s a more granular scale than “newb” and “veteran.” A two-week newbie is not the same as a six-month newbie. Neither is a five-year veteran the same as a fifteen-year veteran.
At two weeks, I didn’t know about attributes and remaps (or implants, or Learning skills). At six months, I knew about attributes and found it frustrating that I couldn’t remap often enough to optimize everything I needed to train. At five years, I was spreadsheeting multi-year skill plans, optimizing attributes to match, maxing out any boosts to training, and was fanatical about logging off in my +5 clone. At almost sixteen years and over 370M SP, I don’t care about attributes any longer. The last remap I did was quite a while back, and that was to balance points across all attributes. I’m literally training just to train now. I don’t care enough about what’s in my queue to bother optimizing.
Eh. I definitely think new players should get a leg up when it comes to initial skill training. And there are systems to ease the pain for new players (starter accelerators and free 1M SP, for example). Could more be done? Certainly. The problem comes in helping new players without creating systems readily abused by established players rolling new alts or farming SP.
That said, I think there should always be room to optimize training, and rewards for putting in the extra effort to do so. I also don’t think older players have to be penalized to improve life for new players. It’s not a zero-sum equation.
New players also start with bonus remaps, that allow them to train optimized with 2 changes per year the first years.
Attributes are extremely important, the people who don’t get it are weaker. Newbies who get it, are much stronger than other newbies. And the remaps matter way more than then +5 implants.
Just a question. What would be a recommended remap for a newbie? Depending on what activity he or she was doing. Say primarily PVP, exploration, or whatever.. What would any of that look like?
SP/min = Primary_attribute + 0.5 x Secondary_attribute
Default attributes are 20, except for Charisma at 19.
(Note: I’m going to ignore Charisma in the scenarios below, because the difference is minimal and it just complicates the math).
Primary/Secondary attributes of 20/20 yield a base training rate of 30 SP/min.
Maxed out attributes (27/21) yield 37.5 SP/min. That’s a 25% gain, but only for skills with aligning attributes. For other skills, using the now-reduced score of 17/17, the rate is 25.5 SP/min, a 15% decrease. So if you’re a newbie with a skill plan that’s all over the place, you might be averaging only a 10% gain to skill training with a maxed out remap.
On the other hand, if you leave the attributes at default, train Cybernetics V, and install a full +5 implant set, your training rate is also 37.5 SP/min. That’s the same 25% gain as the optimized remap, but for all skills in your queue.
I would say that newbies who learn about implants are better advantaged than newbies who learn about remaps. Further, after the first two, a poorly-considered remap or a sudden change in training priorities can have year-long repercussions. Swapping implants is as easy as switching clones. All it costs is ISK.
Or in short.
Remap difference is +10 primary, +4 secondary = 10 + 4/2 = 12 SP/min
Implant difference is +5 primary, +5 secondary = 5 + 5/2 = 7.5 SP/min
Yes everything varies with your skill plan and how many hours on average you spend in each of your clones (assuming some of them have attribute implants). Poor planning is bad, good planning is good, attributes understanding extremely important for game.
