Avatar Gameplay Polls and Discussion - WiS & Beyond

(Salt Foambreaker) #130

Immersion is not enough. It needs to actually do something.

Keep in mind you are calling for a feature that cost millions and failed once already, you need REALLY COMPELLING ideas.

(Bataav) #131

Alright Salty, from what I can tell throughout this thread, you have set out two simple requirements for avatar gameplay to be valid from your perspective.

These are:

  1. Avatar gameplay must not introduce unique gameplay, thereby “forcing” players to participate in a feature they do not want to; and,
  2. Avatar gameplay must not duplicate existing gameplay, already accessible via established methods.

Your personal requirements are impossible to meet. You can’t achieve one without contradicting the other, but then you know this because you’re not actually open to any meaningful suggestions or serious conversation about this topic. You don’t have any interest in avatar game play, which is completely valid and understandable in itself, but what isn’t valid is that you believe your own preferences to be superior to someone elses.

Your approach would be like me applying your two requirements to… I don’t know, say nullsec, and declaring sov mechanics, etc. to be completely invalid.

Applying your logic, sov mechanics are invalid because they are unique to a particular section of EVE Online, and I don’t want to be “forced” into having to play in nullsec and deal with sov and everything that entails, just because I might want reliable access to particular ores, or to anchor certain structures, or I want to build supers, and, still using your logic here, it’s just not fair that I can’t do that where I am in lowsec :sob:.

I guess I’m just not that arrogant.

Setting aside all gameplay, if CQ had included the ability to simply share a space with other avatars - just to sit around a table in a room with our corpmates, for example - I believe the fate of WiS could have been very different.

What you’re failing to understand is that, for those of us who do support CCP’s original vision for a complete Sci-fi experience, the idea of greater immersion through avatar gameplay (and playing “space barbie”) is “REALLY COMPELLING” in itself!!

Additionally, you really are underestimating the amount of money to be made from vanity stuff for avatars. It’s been said before, RPers are the biggest bunch of clothes horses you can find. In fact CCP might have a reasonable metric to gauge this, by looking at SKINs.

But admit it, Salty. You do like to play dress up really. After all, you went shopping and bought yourself a nice beret for your profile pic. And very nice you look too :wink:

You might not take it seriously. People out there might make hillariously ridiculous looking avatars, but the bottom line is… well CCP’s bottom line, isn’t it? And why would any of us want to deny CCP what could be a lucrative revenue stream?

However. If you’re right, and the WiS engagement was so low because it was a failure, if demand is so low, the question you need to ask yourself, is why do players keep raising this topic?

Why have there been countless threads, for years, spanning multiple EVE forum iterations, and elsewhere, each growing into hundreds of posts (just like this one) about WiS?

Why do they look back to that early CCP vision and still cry out for it?

My answer to you is that there are some of us who are still aspirational about EVE Online. And I’m not some bright-eyed newbie, fresh from some other candyland MMO.

I’m over eight years deep into EVE Online, and I can tell it’s still got more to give, and that includes avatars.

3 Likes
(Salt Foambreaker) #132

These are not my personal requirements, These come from the community, people do not want to be forced to WiS just to play spaceships.

Duplicate is duplicate, that is just expensive and one of the stated reasons for taking WiS offline.

And yes they are impossible to meet, that is why WiS was and will be hopeless.

(Che Biko) #133

Immersion is enough for a lot of players, especially the female ones (who currently only make up a small percentage of the EVE player base.)
It was enough that even though WiS was abandoned after deploying only the CQs, you could not use it outside NPC stations, and you had to manually turn the feature back on from the default “Off” setting if you had docked in a citadel, 3% of the player base still used it while it did not actually do anything other than provide immersion. I would not call that a failure.

4 Likes
(Salt Foambreaker) #134

Immersion was here when they took it out, apparently not enough to prevent cancelation how do you expect it to be enough to get them to redo, ESPECIALLY since they no longer have the staff?

(Prospektor Schipplock) #135

Guys, you are so uncreative… Especially Salt Foambreaker ! Yeah you…

I didnt read all, because TLDR;

but, i love the Vision of a Walking in Stations. I do not talking about that running in station like it was in Star Trek Online, where i dock with my huge enterprise, and the station, who contains it, has only a space like a villa. Ridiculus.

I think the Approach of Captian Quarters, was to guess, what the desing should look like, and i think they succeeded at that point. I loved the Designs, and really hope, that the door is opening soon.

Anyway. you say Walking in Stations is Uncreative ?

Let us imagine following Situation.

There you are, with your Badger Mark II, arrived in Jita. Docking Procedere is like always, and you entered the Capitain Quarters. While you reached the Door, and entering your Pin Code (that unlocks the door from inside), because, its posible that bad guys, waiting outside (maybe some Dust guys ?) .

So after all is clear, and you was leaving the pod, you are vulnerable. You may wear some weapons (where is a lot on the market right now, have some high tech arm bunkered), but in Jita no Weapons are allowed (as always in highsec) to wear inside the station.

After you arrived the first floor, you decide to check the market. You openend your Mobile or tablet, or whatever you wished. In that case, The User Interface of Eve zooms in, and you can use eve as usual, for that case, you standing around.

you decide, to take a look at the market itself. I will say something to this later. You see some nice stuff there, but the Marines left and right from the door, looks suspicous on you. You decide to watch further, you see the first time, how a Excavator Drone is look like. He has 2 here. (For explanations. These Markethalls has to be rented. And this guy is offering this on that floor for example. He has completely (Like Housing in Dark Age of Camelot) organized that room. The desks (10.500 ISK) and the stuff, you can see in that room, had to been applied by players, bought by players, and maybe also get stolen by players.

After you decided, not to buy from that ugly guy (maybe he is looking like Innominate) - you go further and go to other places…

You will realize that this kind of connections you can gain over personal contact to other players, will increase the possiblites of your reputation.

The station is huge (not as huge as a keepstar). And the inside design of the station can be created procedural. Like the leveldesign in diablo 2 (which every games looks different, but you are able to follow the story).

Can you realize, what happens, if you entered the station, that huge (if you want) - you can lost hours, to explore it completly.

Maybe there are possibilities to hack into a corp office, which is atm closed. Or other stuff… Like Dust 514 ■■■■ or so.

Depends on you. If you have no Imagination. You deny all the other guys, who needs this imagination to keep this in video, for further usements. There are so many possiblities here, but it has to be created correctly.

If the user itself, can define, what the station is look like. maybe throw away an empty Can of Quafe… There is waste too.

This waste you will see… What to do with that waste ? reprocess ? How to get that organized ? Thats the question you should ask, and not saying, no … this is not possible, or not used.

If i give you a single stone of lego, you cant do nothing. You maybe can suck it. Thats all. Or jump on it.

But if you create a whole set of lego pieces of different kind, your imaginations starts.

And dont tell me, thats not immersive or something like that. Minecraft wouldnt Work without that. Or other games too.

Thrust me, if ccp is want to do this right, this will come in time

And then, its done.

Hopefully

(Salt Foambreaker) #136

And 90% of the players scream “YOU ARE FORCING ME TO WIS”.

It is a no win situation.

(Daichi Yamato) #137

I can tell you haven’t been reading.

  • Must not be tedious and unnecessary. (i.e. not quicker and easier to do from a station panel)
  • Must lead to actual game play. (this is the whole point of the feature. People don’t stick around for JUST for immersion)
  • Must not be overly restrictive to existing game play. (i.e. don’t say you can invade structures to ignore reinfi timers)

Of course immersion isn’t enough. The captains quarters were immersive, but less than 10% of the playerbase used it.

And before you say; ‘cause it was just one room’, you could have 100 rooms. If they don’t do something that is engaging/useful you will get tired of wandering around the same rooms doing a whole load of nothing, over and over and over again.

You think ccp are going to frequently iterate on avatar gameplay? With less than 10% interest in it? It took them 6 years to get back to pi, and most of the playerbase takes part in pi.

You guys still don’t have anything even approaching concrete game play. You’re plucking at straws to shoe horn in some feature, ANY fearure, to justify the existence of wandering around not doing anything.

1 Like
(Bataav) #138

Oh I’ve been reading, and I completely understand where you and the others who don’t agree with the concept of WiS as a valid feature are coming from.

Your preference is to have a purely spaceships in space focus. And that’s a perfectly valid opinion to hold.

What you’re not doing though, is understanding our position.

Let me try again to explain (again) with an example:

I can’t think of anything less fun than taking part in the huge nullsec fleet fights, under crushing tidi, with huge balls of capitals and supercapitals resulting in billions of ISK being lost. It just doesn’t do it for me.

And apparently I’m not alone, because sov nullsec is home to a minority of EVE’s population. Many, many more people play in highsec.

But that doesn’t invalidate it as a feature. It has it’s audience, and even though other areas of the game are enjoyed by a majority of the playerbase, CCP are perfectly right to give it the attention it deserves.

Why is this relevant?

Because, I’m happy to admit that avatar game play may only appeal to a minority of the playerbase.

Where your position and mine differs is that, just as with nullsec mechanics, catering to a niche audience doesn’t invalidate something as a feature deserving of CCP’s attention.

2 Likes
(Bataav) #139

Two of the oldest (if not the oldest) alliances in EVE Online that are still active to this day are roleplayers (CVA and Ushra’Khan, both founded in 2004), who are exactly the kind of audience this kind of feature would be catering to.

Just two alliances with over 2,000 players between them.

How many other customers are CCP missing?

3 Likes
(Veskin Sentinel) #140

Well, again, let’s take a look at Project Nova. Since CCP works on its development, it is safe to say they have probed the market, made surveys among the EVE playerbase and they know there is an interest in a shooter set in the EVE universe. Lots and lots of people want to play it.

And when implemented correctly, upon release, it will attract even more players. Who will naturally ask for more avatar interactions, like social ones, not just bars in stations, but building houses on planets, corp and alliance quarters, armory rooms, briefing rooms, hideouts, huge planetary outposts that can shoot a ship in orbit, as shown in some of the official videos etc. etc., with all the combat and capture and sovereignty gameplay that comes around such things. Just like EVE has missions, Nova players will ask for missions in stations and on planets, space outposts etc. All of this is avatar gameplay.

It will have nothing to do with the spaceship experience, will probably not be obligatory tied to it, since you guys express this requirement so vocally, it can be done this way. But don’t think that only a selected few want such things. There was a presentation about Nova in the last Fanfest. There were roundtables, the interest in this is high.

2 Likes
(Salt Foambreaker) #141

What’s to understand, you want to bring back a feature that cost (lost) millions of dollars and had to be removed.

You need something pretty compelling to justify that and everything you are saying is THE SAME ■■■■ we heard back then.

(Daichi Yamato) #142

Nope.

I like the idea of wis and supported it when it was first attempted. I’m just realistic about it’s applications.

Is where you’re wrong again.

It’s not just that less than 10% of the players are interested in avatar gameplay. It’s that avatar gameplay is a completely different kettle of fish. An entirely separate set of coding and artwork. For all intents and purposes it is an entirely separate game.

That’s not to say they can’t work together, but when you make a comparison to null it just doesn’t apply in the same way. If eve was made with lego, null sec is more lego, you take bits you already have and know, modify them the way you want and they are designed to slot together easily. It’s worth it.

Avatar gameplay however is paint and canvas. It works very differently to lego and has a different set of rules. Combining these two is not a bad thing when theres a point to it when it’s worth it. A reason to go through that work other than ‘ooh shiny’. Because, as we know fron experience, ‘ooh shiny’ doesn’t last.

As someone who has spent nearly half of my 8 years in and out of ushrakahn i can say their members are the same folks you’d see in any lasting group of players. Like me there is generic interest in avatar gameplay, but i bet if you ask em you’d hear the vast majority turned off their captain’s quarters too.

Having a meeting room where all your avatars can hang out and chat would be cool a couple times, but before long it’d be much easier and faster for participants to just chat in a chat room or on comms without having to physically move their pod to a certain station. What do you think?

Only die hard role players would use an avatar meeting room or buy pointless beer in a space bar. Most of Ushrakahn are not die hard role players. It’s not a requirement for role play to be in the alliance and few actually partake in the activity. And even then it’s a few eve mails, the odd chatter in channels and comms, but not intel channels or fleet comms (you know, the ones that matter).

@Veskin_Sentinel

Yes there is interest in nova…as a separate game.

But what happened when eve players found the test un-engaging/un-fun? It got put on hold, indefinitely if i remember correctly.

Walking around? Immersion? Is nothing without working gameplay. Thank god ccp recognise this.

You folks want WIS to work? I do too. But we need to think of something to do with it first. If we can’t think of gameplay that would be engaging with black and white match-stick men, we may as well not bother with the artwork and immersion.

1 Like
(Salt Foambreaker) #143

This is the failure you are trying to revive.

https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/topic/24941/

(Veskin Sentinel) #144

Hmm… at first it seemed that you are trolling, by linking a topic where the OP did troll, but I read all the entries there and I gotta thank you. That was really helpful, Salt. And thanks for the rest of the reasonable posts you guys made, arguments are solid.

In the second page there is a reply from Sakura Imoru where they quote a portion of CCP Hellmar’s open letter regarding the events around Incarna, the reasons for them, the vision that CCP has for the game and the future plans. I found the full letter, I hope no one minds me snaring it, and I think it is a good time to review it and remember how things happened and note that it was a turning point for CCP and the EVE Community.

Incarna failed and there, in the letter, it is really well explained why. I really hope there is good understanding among the Community about these things and I do hope that we all can see how CCP has learned from the mistakes of the past. Just because it failed once, doesn’t mean it has changed the core vision of the developers.

If you fall from your bike and your friends call you a failure, do you cry and never bike again? You get up and try again, because you want to feel the freedom of movement the bike gives you. Same is with the vision that EVE devs want to deliver.

A quote from the letter:

Incarna

For the same reasons, Incarna—the real one with actual meaningful gameplay in it— will be a big step towards the future. For an experience that relies so much on emergence and human interaction, it’s remarkable that it’s taken us this long to actually put a face on it. Once Incarna hits its stride, EVE will be more personal, and thus more accessible to general audiences. Visual self-expression in a virtual setting is a core psychological component of gaming; most people need to see their avatars, or something vaguely humanoid, or else they don’t connect with the game. We were behind the curve and it needs to be addressed for the sake of EVE’s longevity. We have the technology. Now we need time to add the content that will bring more meaning to the gameplay—again, without disrupting the space combat simulator that many of you are, or at least were, very much in love with—and without delaying crucial improvements that this core experience desperately needs.

A Humbler, Stronger CCP

I’m sharing these revelations with you now because it’s taken this long to transform them into action. From all this self-reflection, a genesis of renewal has taken root, a personal and professional commitment to restore the partnership of trust upon which our success depends, and a plan that sets the foundation for us to sensibly guide EVE to her fullest potential. In the coming days and weeks, the details of this plan and what it means for you will be unveiled. Part of what led us down this path is the fact we have not communicated well. This blog, and those that will follow, will hopefully demonstrate our conviction to transparency.

Good things are coming. They always do when you learn from your mistakes. In 2007, we faced a similar crisis of confidence, and it resulted in the creation of the CSM. We’re a better company because of it. In the last months, we’ve taken a hard look at everything, including my leadership. What I can say for now is that we’ve taken action to ensure these mistakes are never repeated. We have reexamined our processes, hired experienced industry professionals for key leadership positions, reassessed our priorities, moved personnel around and, above all else, recognized our limitations.

For me, the most frustrating aspect of this is that after all this time, as far as EVE has come and in spite of everything that’s happened, I fervently believe with all my heart that we’ve not even scratched the surface of EVE’s potential. My personal failing is not reconciling that passion with pragmatism. We’ve been trying to expand the EVE universe in several directions at once, and I need to do a better job of pursuing that vision without diluting or marginalizing the things that are great—or could be great—about the game right now. Nullsec space needs to be fixed. Factional warfare needs to be fixed. The game needs new ships. We need to do a better job of nurturing our new players and making EVE the intriguing, boundless universe it has the potential to be.

We really do have something that no one else has. EVE is still unique in the real and virtual world. This is our vision for her, and we want so badly to take you there. But getting there is not an entitlement. It will take hard work, open communication and, above all else, collaboration with you. The greatest lesson for me is the realization that EVE belongs to you, and we at CCP are just the hosts of your experience. When we channel our passion for EVE constructively, we can make this vision a reality together.

But enough talk from me. We all know that much quoted phrase, “It’s not what you say, it’s what you do,” that will make the difference here. From now on, CCP will focus on doing what we say and saying what we do. That is the path to restoring trust and moving forward.

Regards,

Hilmar Veigar Pétursson, CEO

CCP Hellmar

And, of course, let me make it clear. We all want the Avatar Gameplay, if it is ever to be implemented, to be a separate game, leaving the core spaceship experience intact and with frequent improvements, just like we have it now. Separate game for the avatars, be it in Nova or in some new way, because the technology dictates so. The poll also shows most of the folks want it that way.

EVE devs know their limits and strengths and have a clear view on whether this is possible. Maybe the technology and developers teams composition do not allow for Incarna features to be implemented in the near future, but see above, read the letter in full and you will learn what their vision about the game is. I can resonate with it, as well as many other people.

The spaceship experience will keep improving and at one point, when the ship simulator is expanded wide and far, when Nova is a full game, more players will want a larger scope for the game, one that includes avatars, again, not making them mandatory for the ones that don’t need them.

1 Like
(Bataav) #145

A little something relevant from today’s AMA with Hilmar

:slightly_smiling_face:

3 Likes
(Veskin Sentinel) #146

Yes, I also read it and I love it. It is awesome to have such a nice update! :heart: :rocket: :sun_with_face:

(Jint Hikaru) #147

The big problem with WIS, is that to make it worthwhile it is essentially a new game.

i mean you its so different from Eve, you need a different game engine, completely new environments, entirely different movement physics…

Why would a game company put the money and resources into making an entirely new game and not have it be a stand alone game to sell next to its current games?

(Veskin Sentinel) #148

Throughout this topic, this has been discussed and as far as I can see, most of the participants agreed that a future iteration of WiS should be a separate project. This is also seen in the polls results (first post has the original poll and there is a link to the public votes poll).

For me, it seems that it would be a lot easier to integrate any future WiS development into Project Nova, since it is already in motion and it is essentially Avatar Gameplay with dropsuits. Will see what CCP will decide.

And creating an even more immersive world in the setting of EVE has become a lot easier, now that we have the advanced technology, featuring Unreal Engine 4 (used for EVE Valkyrie and Project Nova) shown in the video below.

(Cypr3ss Deteis) #149

I’m down with the ‘mobile game on Tranquility’ aspect… but I think I need more integration… and I think I have a fix for bumping too…

  • All Mining vessels now have a dirty great big Drill Bit on the front, it’s what they use to mine (lasers are bad for the environment, it’s been found).

  • In the instance that you ‘accidentally’ run into someone with your Drill Bit, it gouges a dirty great big hole in the side of the ship (size of hole dependent, of course, on armor/hull amounts).

  • This is when the mini-mobile game kicks off… on your mobile!

  • You’re now a man in a spacesuit (or however you like your avatar to be dressed), and you can actively board and take over the ship you’ve just rammed into. If you have friends they can all join in with their avatars too, on their mobiles.

  • Both ships involved remain in space, should someone ‘accidentally’ run into either ship, they are now in direct competition for all ships via hand to hand avatar combat (maybe with knives… or swords).

  • Winner takes all (the ships/contents of ships), losers have been effectively ‘podded’ back to their home stations).

Eve is saved?

FTFY :slight_smile:

Regards,
Cypr3ss.