Banning repeated gankers from highsec

[Knowledgeminer]

@Adallia_Ataria

Anti ganking can only play with the tools which they are given whilst gankers can use spies, NPC manipulation, warp protection, tethering, multiboxing, alts and all kinds of stuff.

This is utterly wrong. The tools are the same for everybody, be they gankers or anti-gankers. None of the tools you’ve mentioned are “given” to the gankers, that makes no sense. Anti-gankers can use everything you’ve mentioned to their advantage too if they want (I have no idea what “warp protection” means, btw).

Most gankers just happen to know the game mechanics a lot better than most anti-gankers and are much better organised. Blaming the game design and mechanics for one’s own faults and shortcomings, instead of learning to do it better, is NOT the right way to do it…

@Adallia_Ataria

If CCP gave people who anti gank more tools the gankers would just quit

CCP doesn’t have to give any specific tools to any specific group. That’s wrong.

@Adallia_Ataria

If CCP gave people who anti gank more tools the gankers would just quit and seeing as how the gankers are the main cry babies for CCP they don’t dare touch them.

It’s definitely some anti-gankers, not the gankers, who I see crying and complaining about game mechanics in game chats and on the forums all the time.

As far as I can see, what gankers complain about (and I do as well) is how annoying it is having to deal with the never ending requests from those anti-gankers that want game mechanics to be changed in their favour so they don’t have to learn and make the effort to do it better…

[Fox_Ranger]

My very first killmail was from a suicide ganker. He shot my hulk with a hurricane and my defense drones got me his killmail. In hindsight I should have been paying more attention I thought he was a can flipper so I ignored him.

[Max_Deveron]

screw it, let us have a mechanic to capture pods that are -5 and below and force their them all into Jove space with no chance of return…

(totally being sarcastic here)

[Knowledgeminer]

@Salvos_Rhoska

If suicide ganking is causing more player attrition, than retention, that’s a problem that needs addressing.

This “reasoning” is flawed.

For starters, unless you have some evidence that this is the case, so what? You could say the same about every other game feature… Are we supposed to discuss how to change each and every game feature just in case it might be causing more player attrition than retention or what?

But there is another more subtle flaw here. You appear to be implicitly assuming that a hypothetical player attrition caused by a particular game feature could be never ending to the point that too few players would remain and the game would die because of that feature. Well, that’s clearly not the case for suicide ganking.

There are lots of games out there. None of them has to be liked by everyone. But more important, nobody should pretend that the only games in existence should be the ones that he/she likes and screw everybody else that happens to like some other kind of game by trying to change that game into something entirely different…

Just because some players cannot stand suicide ganking doesn’t mean EVE should be changed to cater them. What about all the other players that do happen to like EVE the way it is? Why should some players that have chosen to play a game they don’t like screw all the other players that do like the game they’re playing? And why on earth do they think that changing the game to make it easier for them is fairer than they making the effort to understand the game and protect themselves from being suicide ganked in the first place?

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Knowledgeminer

This “reasoning” is flawed.

The reasoning is fine.

I said “if” x is true, rather than y, then z might need to be done about it.

CCP should, imo, look into what the rate of player attrition is from suicide ganking.

Same applies to any other aspect of the game, should it potentially be causing player attrition, rather than retention.

Player retention= Good.
Player attrition= Bad.

[Johann_Hemphill]

It’s not for the players to conjecture about retention. Attempting to influence the matter is presumptuous and self-important. CCP already has an adequate tools and incentive to handle that job. Our role is simply to play the game as it lays.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

Up to CCP if they do, or dont.

Im merely stating my view on whether it would be pertinent to do so.

Imo, all possible sources/causes of player attrition should be investigated.

[Ima_Wreckyou]

They do. Watch CCP Quants talk. Also it is not as simple as you think it is.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Ima_Wreckyou

Also it is not as simple as you think it is.

Are you a mind-reader?
You dont know what I think.

I could just as well tell you, its simpler than you think.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Ima_Wreckyou

…

Tell me how, exactly, its more complicated than “I think”?

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Tell me how, exactly, its more complicated than “I think”?

As @Knowledgeminer already pointed out, even if suicide ganking would cause player attrition, which for all we know is not the case, removing it would have a wide range of effects which in turn may cause a lot more player attrition.

You seem to think that:

@Salvos_Rhoska

I said “if” x is true, rather than y, then z might need to be done about it.

Which suggest that you don’t understand in the slightest how interwoven this game mechanics are and how changing them would affect the game.

However, I don’t blame you, I mean you don’t even play the game.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Ima_Wreckyou

You seem to think that

I think that IF suicide ganking is causing more attrition, than retention, both on the part of the ganked and the gankers, then its worth looking at changing some of the associated mechanics.

Would you not agree, that if its causing more attrition than retention, that is something that needs to be looked at?

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Would you not agree, that if its causing more attrition than retention, that is something that needs to be looked at?

No, because we would also need to know if changing this game mechanic would not cause even more attrition because of how the complete lack of danger (even if just perceived and improbable) would change Highsec.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Ima_Wreckyou

No, because we would also need to know if changing this game mechanic would not cause even more attrition because of how the complete lack of danger (even if just perceived and improbable) would change Highsec.

There are other ways to introduce danger to HS, than suicide ganking.

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Salvos_Rhoska

There are other ways to introduce danger to HS, than suicide ganking.

I’m not sure what you have in mind, but really, who cares…

The whole discussion is pointless since the only data we have from CCP suggests that ganking is actually beneficial for player retention. So the whole discussion is completely pointless.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Ima_Wreckyou

the only data we have from CCP suggests that ganking is actually beneficial for player retention

The data suggests blowing up due to PvP in early days helps retention.

But it says nothing about suicide ganking specifically, which is a distinct form of PvP, exclusive to HS, and many mechanics.

[Miatsu_Tzash]

Hi all,
newish player here day 109.I have limited game knowledge but I am going to share with you the activities I have undertaken since joining the game. Based on what I have been doing I am at a loss to see why this dialogue has remained such a hot topic. So I will stick to facts,evidence and reasonable conclusions from said evidence.
You may find reading about Normalcy Bias and Game Theory useful.

So step 1 as a new player understand and accept the environment.

15YR old game. You are competing with individuals who have more experience,more wealth,can commit more time, spend more RL Money,run more accounts etc. So based on that I choose to stay and play.

So a commonly repeated assumption ganking effects player retention. Nonsense the evidence does not support the conclusion. I am a new player and do not feel the least bit intimidated by ganking as I have accepted step 1.
Also when given the opportunity is someone more likely to find a reason to blame ( ganking et al ) rather than be honest and say I couldn’t handle step 1.

Pause for thought. Anyone reading this, would you be quite happy no matter what ship you were flying to simply press the self destruct button.

Ganking is too easy.Assumption not fact. It requires planning, preparation, teamplay, logistics etc. Everything that any successful entity requires wether it be fleet action, planet management etc.

They can just run an alt to make it easier. Many people use alts to make other facets of the game easier. Conclusion based on bias.

Bumping ( see Cyanistes Caeruleus and milk bottles ). Bumping has always existed many just didn’t notice. Fly close to a collidable structure and see your speed drop. Get swamped by many fast moving ships and watch your time to warp increase as they bump your ship when they get too close and disrupt your alignment. This was observed in missions. So in the past this behaviour was observed and they used it in the PvP environment.

Jita Trade Hub.Think about this.Does it actually need to exist. I will leave that thought with you.

The pipes. Here is an analogy.

A well trodden path.Once upon a time there were no snakes,then a few. Overtime as feeding was so good the population increased. Even though I see this happening I continue to walk this path as that is what I have always done. Even though I saw people being bitten I decided that it wouldn’t happen to me as it hadn’t yet. I will close my eyes, walk naked down the path and lather myself in their favourite food.But I won’t get bitten as I haven’t yet.

Security Status. Having a negative standing with Concord is working exactly as intended. Stop being biased because it is not working the way you want it to.

Tasks I have undertaken to explore the dangers of the environment that I choose to undock into.

Built a Venture.Fitted a passive targetter and ship scanner. Went mining and deployed drones.Looked like I was mining but purpose was to check out ships.Do you acknowledge every new ship that enters your system in local with a cheery hello.When you go to off load your cargo do you refit to see if that venture is doing what you simply assumed it was doing. Based on my observations. No one does.

Have you made a scout? Set up a ship scanner and passive targetter. Checked out the pipe. Scanned ships to see if they have scanners or smartbombs equipped.Made a list of those who have. Checked their killboard to see who they associate with. Made a list of peeps who are clearly up to no good. I have.
Have you tried when you jump through a stargate to take advantage of the 1 min invisibility you get.
5 secs to active a module ( passive targetter ) then ship scan then jump back through and view results at your leisure. I have tried.

Have you heard about this cheeky little module Small Secure Container. Deployable 0.7 and below. 50k hit points. Anchor it and it cannot be snaffled up. Concord appears if someone shoots it.Hmm what happens if a cloaky comes within 2km of it? Could I make a minefield?

Did you ever take advantage of people being ganked? I did. Wait for a gank to take place and sneak through whilst all the chaos etc is taking place. Easy peasy lemon squeezy

TLDR Stop being biased and making assumptions. Understand your environment, adapt and seek solutions. It is not the responsibility of CCP to change things because you didn’t try. I see no evidence of trying.

I am not a ganker it is not my PvP playstyle. Do I want to be part of a corp that plans,prepares, involves teamplay and communicates, absolutely.

fly safe and please whatever you choose to do make it fun.

[Ildrara]

Instead of banning them from high sec which seems excessive why not make them unable to be tethered.

Achieves a similar goal while not taking content away.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

Ganking and suicide ganking are twondifferent things.

[Ima_Wreckyou]

It really is a bit embarrassing that a new player who plays this game for only ~100 days gets EVE like a gazillion times more than you. Maybe you should play it some time before you discuss about things you know nothing about? Just an idea.