There is no SERIOUS consequences to hi-sec ganking - this needs to be addressed and fixed

So here is one of the major problems with Eve, especially in relations to new and newer players, especially the ones who cannot generate large sums of isk to replace loss ships. This is something I have talked about with numerous players and literally everyone I have talked to is in agreement on the first 2 points and most agree with the 3rd point.

  1. There is no SERIOUS consequences for ganking in hi-sec.

What do I mean by this? Simple, there isn’t any real, lasting, serious consequences for people who go around ganking players in hi-sec whether it be they are running missions or as in my case ganking expensive mining ships.

What happens to gankers in hi-sec? Basically nothing. They take out very cheap build ships that can produce insanely high damage output to gank higher cost ships/builds/drones. A perfect example of this is what happened to me last night. No, this is not whining about it, it’s an example that happened to me. I am out in my Orca which I busted my arse for 2 months to get to and was using augmented drones. On average those drones cost 50 million each, 250 million isk total give or take a bit. A CODE player comes in with a cheap catalyst build with a bunch of smart bombs - 8 of them - and before I even noticed him in the system or even getting near me he basically warps right on top of my drones, drops a bunch of bombs and blows them all up. My loss was insane compared to the whole 2.5 million isk loss he had on his ship. This is absolutely insane if anyone thinks that is remotely fair and not a move done to simply be a prick. This is in addition to losing about half a dozen other ships myself and seeing several dozen other ganks to them while mining. Yes, mostly retrievers or covetors which again they can take out with easily a sub 10 million isk build and they get a nice 30 to 50 million (depending on build of course) kill mail. So they lose a VERY cheap ship as consequence number 1.

What else? Again, nothing serious. They get a small hit on security status which again has NO serious repercussions. It does not keep them out of hi-sec even if they are at -10. They still can roam around freely and only need to duck into a station to keep concord off them if they are in criminal status, use alts to scout for targets, and then warp right on top of those targets to take them out.

What else does it cost them? Nothing from what I can tell

Most of the time they are not doing this for loot purposes but simply to, in my opinion and I’m sure many others, be complete and total asses to other players. To interfere with their game and cause them misery. I do not care what all the old time players say that Eve is essentially a PVP based game. No it is not. PvP can be one aspect of it but this isn’t even pvp. Why? Read on.

  1. It is COMPLETELY imbalanced in favor of the gankers.

Even when they are known gankers and people playing in ganking corporations you can do NOTHING to them until they act first. Why? Because if you do you will get killed by Concord just as they would. With the exception of if they are already criminal provided you can catch them. The criminal ones just simply run and hide in stations until scouts pick out targets for them to warp on top of. So a security hit is no real consequence.

  1. It WILL drive new/newer players out of Eve.

For myself I have been playing the game now almost 3 months. At the end of my Omega account on the 25th I can guarantee you I will not renew my Omega subscription. If I can plex the account I may continue on this way but I have no desire to be in a game where I have to mine, or do any activity really, 10 to 12 hours a day to earn enough in game currency to get premium game play. Since the field is massively stacked in favor of those who have subscriptions or support the game by buying plex from players who pay this makes playing as an Alpha simply not any real fun. Now this is perfectly fine it is stacked in favor of paying players, that’s not the point of this statement. But playing as an Alpha is inherently severely limited on what you can. Can you have fun? Yep, you can. But you are limited in your choices.

I have personally talked to a few people who have quit eve as newer players because of these ganking issues. They see the amount of time it takes to earn isk and how gankers can destroy days, weeks, or even months of play time in an instant setting them back to essentially zero. Yes there is the addage of don’t fly what you can’t lafford to lose. Well when a decent ship costs 100 million plus to do pve in and your isk rewards for pve in general are fairly low people don’t want to go take that shiny new ship out and get it blown up just for some pricks pleasure of saying they killed xxx person and they lost 100 million, 200 million, etc isk.

This is a game. It should be fun for everyone, not just a select group of people. If you want to passively mine in hi-sec vs low or null, or do missions, or any other activity - then you should be able to do that without having to constantly look over your shoulder. However, the rewards shouldn’t be as good for doing those activities as what you can get in low sec or null. Risk vs Reward.

So how do you fix this?

First, make the risk of doing activities in low sec and null sec much higher than what you can get in hi sec.

Second, make some serious and real consequences for people ganking in hi sec and make it far, far more expensive for them to do it. So you can’t change the cost of ships so you apply a massive penalty to them for doing it so they actually have to think about it. Perhaps equal to the loss of the player being ganked. Is it worth me destroying that 40 million isk retreiver, 250 million isk Hulk, 250 milllion isk worth of drones if I am suddenly going to have to pay fines for ganking that player?

When they lose security status and become a criminal it should be instant death upon landing in a hi-sec area, no warnings to leave. Just boom, you’re dead by Concord. Make it so that being a criminal actually has consequences to it. Also make it so that you lose massive amounts of security each time you gank to the point that if you’re a new character you are a criminal within say 10 ganking kills. Make it so that they are limited to low security space and even there not safe from Concord if they linger more than a few minutes out in the open based on the actual security status. Make it so the only safe place they have from the authorities is in null.

It also needs to be made extremely difficult for them to regain their security status to be able to enter hi-sec. Something like you kill one person, it takes 50 times the effort to regain that lost amount of security in missions so that again there is a real consequence to the action.

Make it so that known gankers, before they are criminal, at a very low threshhold like -.5 security, are able to be targetted and killed on sight. Or if they participate in alliances such as CODE (only using because they are wwell known) that anyone in those types of alliance becomes fair game upon joining. What stops them from forming new alliances? Nothing. You set up a system that flags corporations in alliances every time ganking happens and after xxx amount of ganks the whole alliance is put on a permanent hit list in hi-sec.

I’m sure there are other ways this could be addressed to make it so there is much more serious consequences for ganking in hi-sec. You want to keep newer players in the game, people like myself that would gladly pay to play this to have access to content I otherwise won’t, then this needs to be addressed. To all the elitest old time players that don’t agree with this, move on. I have already heard it from the elitests in game that this is how the game has always been. Just because it’s always been this way doesn’t make it right or the best way to keep players coming in and staying.

Risk vs Reward. There is no risk for gankers and their rewards are high.

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Counter point: why does there need to be a “serious” consequence to ganking?

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Did you know that CCP recently introduced Triglavians? A whole class of NPC dedicated to mimicking the behavior of highsec ganking. Those NPCs don’t have any consequences for ganking you either.

Maybe Eve is the wrong game for you. But fear not - there are lots of carebear games for you to try.

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New players don’t have expensive exhumers.

If you’ve played enough to own an expensive Exhumer you are experienced enough to avoid ganking.

You have an Orca. You have at least a billion ISK in space. That’s about 5,000,000,000m3 of Veldspar. That’s not a couple of months of highsec mining. With a Mackinaw, that’s about 144 full ore holds.

OK maybe it’s a couple months if you only stop playing to sleep. Briefly.

There are consequences to ganking in high sec.

  • Concord
  • Kill Rights
  • Negative Security Status

There are also consequences to AFK mining. Getting ganked.

If it bothers you your 250,000,000 ISK of drones get trashed in seconds, well take a cue from the ganker. Use cheaper ■■■■. You don’t need to use 250,000,000 of drones. You could use tech 2 drones and risk what, 1/10 of that? An hour of mining effort, rather than a week.

That was your choice. You chose poorly. Adapt.

Nobody said you were safe in high sec. In fact, everybody is screaming at you that the truth is the opposite. Nobody is going to change this for you.

This is working as intended. This was explicitly by design.

Make better decisions.

Risk vs. Reward. You took a huge risk and it blew up in your face. Try being more risk averse.

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First off, I’m confused. Are you speaking of this kill in low sec? The loss you incurred in Miyeli? You lost an orca in Miyeli, 0.4 security space, on May 7th. The group there, were not CODE. players.

Second, there are consequences for ganking in highsec. Loss of security status, loss of ship, kill rights that have the potential for lasting up to 30 days. (That’s a lot of looking over your shoulder.) Plus, there is no guarantee you’ll get a good loot drop.

Not to mention, piracy, as a career choice, is supported by the game.
AND, if you want to get picky about it, right now, you are faced with the invincible npc ganking team (roaming npcs, of whatever stripe) or you can face human players, who do make mistakes and, sometimes their targets do get away.

My preference, if we had a choice, is pre-superior npc gankers. I prefer human, player to player interaction, rather than, Trigs, FOBs, whatever.

I have wandered from your topic somewhat in addressing npc gankers; but, the reality of the game is highsec piracy, (indeed, just simple “destruction” for the sake of destruction) is allowed.

And for the player gankers the consequences have the potential to last up to 30 days.

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That’s because suicide ganking in HS in itself is not undesirable gameplay. This is not something that should be removed from the game. Also, CCP already has a Rookie Griefing policy which prohibits suicide ganking new accounts in certain systems. It can be argued that the policy could be enhanced or more readily/systemtically enforced, but this would only affect fresh accounts in any case.

Yes, this is insane. Yes, they are a prick. Yes, this is not fair - but it isn’t intended to be. Certain things should and should not be fair in EVE. On this particular point, this need not be fair. When it comes to mining, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it; the right way to go about mining involves being part of a fleet that collectively has a degree of combat readiness (Orca has a fleet maintenance bay for a reason), even if it’s just expediting retreat when dropped on. This is obviously true in LS and NS but it remains true even in a war immune corp in HS.

This is an interesting point - it’s worth considering if the hit could be larger, perhaps based on the value of that which was destroyed :thinking:

Anyone can kill them, though.

Griefing is one of the main ways to “win” at PVP, alongside achieving a high K/D ratio and territorial conquest among others.

Not really. Orca is fully capable of supporting its fleet against gankers, and there are ways solo miners can mine relatively safely as well, though ultimately strength comes in numbers… saying “I want to mine solo” is not an excuse since this is an MMO and as such mechanics should be designed to encourage co-operation and put lone wolves at a severe disadvantage.

This is incorrect. It is more difficult to engage in a preeemptive strike in HS because of CONCORD, this is true, but there are still preeemptive options available both solo and even moreso in fleets. There is a reason the Orca has a ship maintenance bay - a number of options there… but even if we exclude that from consideration, you still have options (eg. for non-Orca fleets). Even a lone miner should be aligned (and ideally pre-accelerated) to warp so they can instantly warp when dropped on. Don’t know what any of what I just said means? Then you need to learn the game better. Join a corp to mentor you. Learn the game, learn to render ganker efforts inert.

This is probably why you’re writing this post - you lack the intimate knowledge and understanding of the game and its mechanics that the rest of us have that would empower you to operate safely in light of suicide gankers operating left and right. Knowledge is power, my friend. Find a corp to mentor you in these things, and once it becomes so blatantly obvious how easy it is to freely and openly operate in their presence, you’ll never make another call to arms for CCP to rebalance or eliminate suicide ganking ever again.

As stated previously, CCP has a Rookie Griefing policy. There are ways CCP could systematically enforce this more readily, sure - they could file for reimbursement if they wanted to. But really, the value of the ships they’re losing are probably a dime a dozen. If they joined a player corp that could mentor to prevent them from making stupid mistakes (like mining in an unsafe fashion, or mining to begin with) and supply them then they wouldn’t be leaving the game.

These figures you’re throwing at us are pennies, a drop in the bucket. Just to give you an idea: there is a mini-game in EVE that you can play called Project Discovery that you can do with zero skills or ships or ISK or anything and can do any time, anywhere, even docked up in a station… get good at it and score over 45m/hr + numerous rewards. Newbie-level exploration requires a 3m frigate and will net about 50m/hr. I Co-Head an organization, the United Standings Improvement Agency [USIA], that hires mission runners where the better Omegas earn over 150m/hr and the better Alphas earn about 75m/hr. Mining is one of the absolute worst ways to make money in EVE; even the highest end of mining setups in nullsec aren’t terribly profitable.

Ultimately, if you’re mining to make ISK, you’re playing the game wrong. There are better ways to both make money and have fun at the same time. Join a corp to mentor you and learn these ways. The real problem isn’t that someone lost their barge or Orca to suicide gankers, it’s that they were using it for profiteering to begin with. (And if they are mining for the reason rights - they need to learn how to mine with a degree of PVP readiness… or don’t mine at all.)

No, absolutely not. Nothing in EVE should be simultaneously passive and safe/profitable. Laid back? Certainly. If you want to breeze through missions, by all means - but always be vigilant. Always. Be. Vigilant. PVP is global in EVE; with the sole exception of Abyssal space and when docked up, you can be attacked any time at any place, even inside a mission site (someone can combat probe your location and warp to you when you are missioning, so mission sites are NOT private instances). Undock is your consent to PVP.

Don’t want to PVP? Either learn ways to avoid/escape it (again, find a corp to mentor you), or don’t play EVE.

The risk is high enough. A 3-month player who has only ever mined in HS has no business making suggestions as to how to increase risk in LS/NS

Why? To knowledgeable players, these gankers are but mere mosquitos for the most part. Learn the game, learn how to mitigate their assaults.

So… how would they ever get back? Technically there are ways, but ultimately the flaws with this suggestion are numerous and unreasonable.

So now CONCORD is going to operate outside of Hisec? Is that what you’re saying? Because currently they don’t have a presence in LS and if they did it would break the game beyond repair. You have zero idea of the ramifications of such a change. Newbies and the grossly ignorant have no business suggesting sweeping radical changes. The game is 17 years old; such core mechanics have remained like this for a reason. Learn to utilize them in your favor rather than fight against them.

:roll_eyes: really? This is extremely immature, honestly.

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I think it’s worth adding that Eve is 100% a PvP game. It doesn’t matter how frequently a newbie voices their opinion that high sec should be a PvP optional environment it will never make it true.

Count yourself lucky OP. There wasn’t even a Concord response at launch.

There is no aspect of a Eve without a PvP component. The situation described is also 100% PvP.

It is deliberate and intentional that players are not prevented from attacking each other in High Sec. it is a PvP environment. It has consequences.

You need to listen to experienced players. It’s not elitism to tell you how the game works and sticking your fingers in your ears and raging wont change intentional game design.

The problem you’ve experienced is, if not completely avoidable, something that can be mitigated.

I am a high sec miner. At least some of the time. Someday I’m sure I’ll get ganked. Nobody can be perfectly vigilant. I don’t AFK mine, so I don’t mine in an Orca. I mine in a ship that costs a couple hundred million ISK at most. It has paid for itself many times over.

250 million ISK in drones, as you have discovered, will probably not pay for itself. You prioritised a very small yield bonus, at huge expense, over pragmatism.

Use cheaper drones. Haul a few percent less ISK. Lose less than one haul of Ore in value rather than 25 hauls. Basic risk assessment principles are your friend. You will lose drones. Lose affordable ones that don’t instantly negate hours of effort.

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Oh boy… this thread again.

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I feel stalked.

I need an adult.

I NEED AN ADULT.

Data Laughing

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OP, gankers are the least of your worries. If I wanted, I could show up in your mining system and bump that Orca of yours until the end of time and you will NEVER get anything mined…

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Ah, you’re part of Silent Company. That explains it. Do you guys ever get tired of losing 30 Orcas every single day?

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Well they are right Flint - since they do not mine , or probably do anything else in the game. Pvp is the only thing they are interested in . But the 1st mistake you made ,was paying for this game without checking these forums. do not omega if you want to do other things than pvp , they are right … play alpha or find another game .

False. A number of the posters here on this thread are highly knowledgeable in mining and are active miners ourselves - the difference between us and OP is we know how to mine safely and OP doesn’t. The reality of EVE is that mining is a PVP-prone activity; even moreso with the introduction of trigs in belts (which are essentially PVP-level rats). To suggest that mining should be or could be PVP-free is folly, because the very notion goes against one of the core tenets of the game that PVP is global and that undock is your consent to PVP.

Not only does saying “they only care about PVP” mischaracterize the participants of this thread, but more importantly such a statement is irrelevant: our opinions don’t matter in this regard because it won’t change the fact that if you want to mine, expect PVP at any time, at any place. You can either prepare a contingency plan for gankers dropping in on you, or suffer the consequences of not doing so.

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Oh :shushing_face:

Indeed

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Their reward is the topic you just created. They are losers, who do not fight ships that can fight back, and they do it to get someones day ruined. Your salt just give them more reasons to do so. Learn how to ruin their day instead of just complaining here. There are at least two in game channels for people, who does this - ‘gank-intel’ and ‘anti-gank’ . Or something like that.

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I see why you’d categorise them as losers and I’m sure they can ruin your day. It’s fair to call them bullies I guess.

But in reality you’re being reductive. Code are essentially a role play group. Go look at their posts. You don’t have to agree with them (I don’t) but they are making the most of the game and generating their own content within the rules and systems of the game.

You also have the opportunity to work within the limitations and systems of the game.

Sitting oblivious in open space, invulnerable from hostile player action, aggressive non-player action, and consequences for your choices is not a play type supported by the game. It is not meant to be.

Suicide ganking is a deliberately enabled play type.

You can wish these players would choose a constructive gameplay style and leave you alone. You can call them names. You can hate them.

You can whine and ask the Devs to provide you with a no-PvP area of space. But they won’t. Mining is a PvP activity, because the market is a PvP activity. Killing the competition is a legitimate way to do business in Eve. So is Killing people for amusement.

You can also fly ships fit for more cost effectiveness. You can accept the occasional loss as an operating cost. You can minimise that loss. You can co-operate with the protection racket and pay your dues.

You can also continue to float mods and drones in space that’re so expensive and that’ll die so frequently that you’ll never turn an actual profit.

You’ll learn and adapt to the game, or you’ll rage and quit.

The game sure as hell won’t be adapted to you.

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I disagree. Idiots lose their ships as a result of being ganked.

That is a serious consequence for them, but great for the game.

Tally Ho.

CCP hasn’t to date, agreed that any impact on this is a problem, but luckily they are looking at the state of highsec ganking at the moment and will make changes if they think it is necessary.

Oh. Situation normal.

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As a returning player after some 10 years, yes this is my Alt, I am still finding my way forward, but I DO entirely agree with the above posters…undocking is an invitation to PVP

This is NOT Ultima Online (a wonderful game for it’s time) it is what it is, a struggle to survive, and as I am coming to realise very quickly, not a solo-player game. That said, I don’t think all Corps etc will order you around all the time, or even ever, so if you want to mine go ahead, but within a ‘Brotherhood’ that will value your contribution and look after you when times are ‘difficult’ for you (OP)

What I find difficult after so many years away is how to, and who, to contact Alliances or Corps that are inviting newbies…I suppose I am one now, to join the ‘club’…I have no idea how to do that.

But OP, there is nowhere SAFE in Eve, and that is as it should be. Amen etc :slight_smile:

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Yet another whiny post which is basically " But…But… CCPMommy, they’re bullying me pout "