BLOPS Fleet Hanger...?

game-mechanics

(Garen Lemmont) #1

I’m going to open with this little slice of heaven.

Honestly not sure if this idea would be better served in the Little things/QoL thread or in a dedicated one. Figured this would work…

Idea: Revise BLOPS hangers to incorporate a Fleet Hanger. Accomplished either by designating a subset of the main ship hanger or simply making the main ship hanger into a Fleet Hanger.

Not advocating or suggesting a change to actual hanger size (although bigger is always better ;).

Effect: Only BLOPS BS’s.

Justification:

We’ve all been there, jump out into shallow 0.0 on the call-out of your best and brightest scout. Target down, another scout calls out for a second drop, even deeper into Null. Your fleet comp has the original pair of Scouts, BLOPS BS/Bridge, a smattering of Stratios’, and a handful of bombers. Both targets down, ready to get back home, “CYNO UP… BRIDGE UP”, crap!

Bridge is out of fuel, doh!!

Some of the fleet are grabbing margarita’s and stocking ammo back up, with a pair of Strat’s and the Bridge stranded in deep Null. No fuel, no covert cyno (scouts all dead), no chance to walk back home, no place to dock-up to refit.

The strat’s? They could hazard the trip back by walking. The Bridge? Not going ANYWHERE!

What do?? Couple options available here.

  1. Ensure the Strat’s off-line their plates prior to bridging back home - may have prevented this mess to begin with!!

  2. Ensure Bridge has a mobile depot, cyno, and extra ozone in the cargo bay - best option, but that would take some pre-planning, oopsie’s!!

  3. Have a covert/nullifed cargo-fit T3C on standby to walk out some fuel - people actually have these laying around?

  4. Revise the Bridge fit to include both the bridge and a covert cyno (just in case) - honestly, kind of a crappy workaround.

  5. Burn out a cloaky hauler, restock up on fuel, back in business - could result in hours of downtime if the hauler can’t make the trip due to camps/bubbles, may just be easier to log-off and do something else.

  6. Burn out another scout, blue hauler bridged in, refuel, Boom, back home! - Pretty much the only option, fingers crossed that the locals haven’t abandoned a zillion drones and bubbled the in-gate to kingdom come, they’re usually mad by now!

  7. Burn out an inty with a mobile depot, covert cyno, and some ozone (if req’d). Bridge refits with covert cyno, blue hauler bridged in, refuel, Boom, back to empanada’s on the beach!

Wait a sec… how do you get the mobile depot from the inty to the Bridge? Shoot it and pray for a drop? That’s pretty much your best bet if you don’t have another scout handy or can’t get one out quick enough.

The missing link in all this? Why not just convert 50m3 of the BLOPS hanger (mobile depot size I think) to be a fleet hanger -or- convert the entire hanger to a fleet hanger.

No overall change in BLOPS ship hanger required, flexibility restored, the universe is balanced again!

What do you guys think? Good idea, bad? Anything I missed?


(Roksana Kolesnikova) #2

We used Blocade Runners for fuel transport. They jump with the fleet and if fuel is wanted they jetison the required amount of it.


(Garen Lemmont) #3

Definitely an option, however, we typically don’t drop haulers onto our target’s (i.e as in never drop them). If they can fly a BR to begin with, we push for them to be in dps.

Your method is certainly the best way to ensure a fuel supply, but if they get snagged during the drop, we’re still back to the options available in the post above.


(Roksana Kolesnikova) #4

Well, yeah. But we used what we have, the hauler never shooted down :slight_smile:

A fleet hangar for Blops would be awesome in my opinion.


(Cade Windstalker) #5

Your argument seems to be that, for some inexplicable reason, planning past the engagement you drop into is too hard so CCP should gift you a free mobile refit capability instead of you having to pack a depot and fuel…?

Do I have that right?

You even highlight it right here:

If your feature idea use-case gets cut off at step two by “plan better” you’re probably not getting your wish here…


(Garen Lemmont) #6

Fair point. So let’s suppose I did that, packed up a mobile depot, extra covert cyno, the works! Drop the depot cause we lost the scout (again ;). In the middle of refitting and then the realization hits… combat probes at 1AU scan (I have been vulnerable throughout the refitting after-all)!

I skiddaddle (as expected) leaving the mobile depot behind but saving the ship from impending doom.

Voila, back right back where we started.

If your point is that proper prior pre-planning should be the only option available for extraction, then I guess all we have left is piss poor performance.

I.e. BLOPS pilots should have no option available to fit the required mods for an extract until we a) get another covert scout in system or b) slow boat a BR down to save my ass. If that’s the consensus, hey works great, we’ve had that in place for as long as I’ve used the hull. Status quo ftw!!

But, my proposal essentially stems from the concept that BLOPS are unique in their in-game role. Very few ships have the ability to bring little buddies along for the ride. Since poop happens, why would it be taboo to merely suggest that they have the capability to onboard a required mission critical item… in this case a Mobile Depot, to permit them to fulfill their mission?

Maybe you’re intending to imply something I couldn’t read through the sarcasm? Help me, what am I missing?


(Nevyn Auscent) #7

The fleet hanger would come in for reshipping people that lost their ships so they can jump back out in my head. Since you can’t covert bridge a pod so to bridge the fleet back out they need some covert ship
Ok you are probably only fitting stealth bombers or covert ops into a BS, and I’d like to see hangers changed to ‘X of ship size, Y of other ship size, Z combined maximum’ so that you can carry a decent number of ships without being able to carry other capitals due to the way CCP has written sized.


(Cade Windstalker) #8

If you have enough m3 to fit even a packaged Frigate (2500m3 packaged) let alone fuel or fittings then you’re starting to step on the toes of the actual transport ships. Changing how carrying ships works would be a pretty massive balance undertaking, since not all ships of the same class are equally sized.

Then congrats to the other guys, they’ve out-played you and now have you at their mercy to hunt down while the onus is on you to escape. Or alternatively the onus is on you to make sure you’re not about to get ganked before you drop your depot. Either one.

Welcome to Eve, where you are not guaranteed a quick and easy way out of the predicament you have Blops-dropped yourself into.

Or alternatively you plan better in advance, jump the fuel you need in a BR in along with you, or restrict your operations in such a way that you don’t find yourself out of fuel behind enemy lines.

That in-space refitting is an incredibly powerful tool and is fairly heavily restricted for a reason. That’s why mobile depots are fairly large and take a full minute to anchor. If you want that functionality then pay the price for it, if you find that price too steep then find another solution, because there are tons of solutions to this problem they’re just not as easy and convenient as you’d apparently like.


(Nevyn Auscent) #9

Agreed, but it is a current issue that you can’t jump pods back out. And simply letting pods use a covert cyno could be too good. And agreed it would be a significant balance undertaking changing ship hangers, though not ‘that’ many ships have ship hangers. (Compared to many other balance things anyway).

But that to me is a good reason for a ship hanger, though it’s certainly not required.


(Cade Windstalker) #10

What he was talking about though wasn’t a ship hanger, it’s a fleet hangar, and those can store anything.

Also the problem you run into with your sort of storage system is what happens if I want to mix ships? Right now a Bowhead can store three battleships, a couple Cruisers, and at least half a dozen shuttles on top of that. With your solution either I can suddenly store 4 Battleships (big buff) or all that extra space after the third battleship goes away.

Plus while the packaged volumes of most ships of the same class are the same the unpackaged volumes aren’t. Battleships for example come in at a number of different volumes unpackaged.


(Nevyn Auscent) #11

Oh, duh, missed the fleet rather than ship hanger. Ok yeah, A fleet hanger that large would be a very overpowered things.
And yeah, it does change how you can carry ships with my thought. But a hanger for an assembled ship should need to be built for a certain class of ship. Since ships in EVE are so wildly different sized. Meaning the mechanisms to service a battleship will be hugely different sizes to those to service a frigate. But small variations inside a class wouldn’t make those mechanisms useless.
And it avoids the issue of ‘Well if you can carry 4 of those, suddenly you can carry one of those which are the same size’. Because lets face it, the volumes of unpacked ships in EVE often bear no resemblance to reality.


(Garen Lemmont) #12

Honestly a concept I hadn’t considered. I did some number crunching and just tried out the mechanics on SISI since I have never honestly used BLOPS in a transport role before. Here are the numbers using T2 Expanders and T2 Large Rigs, I could be wrong here but I’m fairly certain there are no implants that affect cargo size.

Redeemer - 5,521 m3
Panther - 4,485 m3
Sin - 4,330 m3
Widow - 2,473 m3

So all except the Widow can carry a single Covert Op Frig or Bomber while the Redeemer can carry two. They would have to be carried packaged with their fits stowed alongside. With the current cargohold mechanic (i.e. non-Fleet Hanger), the ships stored within are essentially useless for direct in-space usage, even with a Mobile Depot available, since they can’t be jettisoned.

If the BLOPS cargohold’s were converted to full size (i.e. equivalent size) Fleet Hangers, these attributes would not change. Packaged ships still can’t be jettisioned from Fleet Hangers and even with a max cargo fit, there simply isn’t enough space to accommodate a fully un-packaged frigate within (needed to be roughly 28k m3). I used an Orca as a test bed and although it has the ability to unpack a frigate in its Fleet Hanger, I still couldn’t get the Frigate out until I shifted the hull to the Ship Hanger.

Of course, none of this speaks to actually dropping a max cargohold fit Redeemer into a BLOPS drop! That’s just CRAZY talk! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: Looks like those pods would have to slowboat back or (more likely) take the pod express :wink:.

I don’t get this reply at all with respect to the initial proposal. In fact I completely agree with you! Hey, I’ll be the first to admit when I’ve been outplayed and in the situation I presented above, the facts haven’t changed. If I was able to warp out and cloak up, I still can’t get out of system until a BR or covert scout arrives. See, still agreeing!

The suggestion is to permit a BLOPS the ability (via the use of a fleet hanger) to receive a Mobile Depot, that’s it! The desired end state is to refit a BLOPS BS with a covert cyno so that it can call in the fuel truck it needs to do its job (my colorful initial example was to ‘get home’). Again, this ability is not something new but a mechanic that already exists in game. The only caveat (and root attribute of the proposal) is being able to receive a Mobile Depot.

Again, agreed completely. Both viable, good, solid options available as of this moment in game. Neither of which address the proposal.

Still a little snippy, but I understand the context behind your statement. Finally getting somewhere! What do you mean by ‘pay the price’? I.e. be willing to use other characters, assets, whatever, to ensure an extraction is made? Sound like a broken record here, but again, I agree! Done! Paid in Full! Extraction a success!

And again, still doesn’t address the proposal.

Is there some ‘price’ that needs to be applied to the BLOPS hull or some ‘price’ that the Hot Dropping mechanic would have to accommodate?

I honestly can’t see how this would break the hulls, the gameplay, or the game. You are of a different mindset, I can tell. Why/how… in your opinion, is this a bad idea?

Proposal: Reconfigure the BLOPS BS cargoholds in one of two ways. 1) Convert 50m3 into a Fleet Hanger to accommodate receipt of a Mobile Depot or 2) Convert the entire BLOPS BS cargohold into a Fleet Hanger.


(Garen Lemmont) #13

Here we are again, just saw this little bit, sorry for the dual posting fellas. This sentiment is echoed in @Cade_Windstalker’s replies above and is puzzling to me, hence our spirited discussion.

I’m not sure what you meant by “a fleet hanger that large” but you clearly said “very overpowered”.

What makes the proposal above, in your opinion, very overpowered?

Let’s just assume your talking about full cargofit Redeemer (not the use-case in my example, but still a valid gameplay mechanic that could pose a problem to what I suggested above in the OP). I have honestly never seen a cargo BLOPS in the wild, but I found a loss-mail with one just a couple hours ago, so I know they exist. :roll_eyes:


(Nevyn Auscent) #14

I was talking about giving them a ship hanger, not a fleet hanger, that would be enough for several Covert frigates at least. So more like 20k is the realm of what I had been proposing. Hence a fleet hanger that big would be huge.


(ISpace CowboyI) #15

WHy should it have a fleet hanger, why not just give it a large fuel bay. Ccp wants more ships to blow up. More fuel = more content. Have 1 blops bridge and an extra 1 or 2 blops to hold fuel in the fuel bay. It doesn’t take away from tank or damage but means you don’t have to have a hauler carry it


(ISpace CowboyI) #16

Also blockade runners can fit covert cyno’s so after your fleet gets done killing or needs an out you have the B.R. Light the cyno and get out, you land the fleet and refuel.


(Garen Lemmont) #17

Boy howdy, now we’re talking overpowered alright! :roll_eyes: That would be way too much capability for a BLOPS. Good thing this already exists in-game, in the form of a SB-laden Carrier or Fax. The downside being that bright shiny “warp-to-me” non-covert beacon and the ridiculously sluggish capital-class hull!

Can sure carry a crap-ton of SB’s though!

Interesting counter-proposal and an option I didn’t honestly consider. Warning, math’s ahead…

So, using the DOTLAN tool and some liberal estimations, I came up with some ballpark numbers. By all means, if my math is off, please correct me!

8 LY jump (JDC 5), fully stocked BLOPS fuel bay (12,500 fuel or 1250 m3)

  • Panther (w/bridge) and 2 IN 1600 Plates requiring ~ 3,842 fuel
  • Single Stratios and 1 T2 1600 Plate requiring ~ 1,284 fuel
  • Single Nemesis requiring ~ 411 fuel

Assuming a fleet comp of a BLOPS, 3 Strat’s, and 3 Nem’s, we arrive at a total fuel cost of ~ 8,105 fuel (or 811 m3)

So, in terms of power projection, a fairly modest fleet of 7 has a pretty effective 8 LY umbrella within which to operate. However, using the current sized fuel bay, that’s pretty much it without a tanker in tow.

If we start adding fuel capacity (e.g. double the bay to 2500 m3), this same modest fleet can reach out to 24 LY before needing a pit-stop. Currently with a tanker in tow, this would still be possible, but the logistics cost is higher (Higher potential reward… higher potential risk)

Is a larger fuel bay an option? Sure! But my original intent was to keep the limits of this gameplay within the current goal-posts and merely add the flexibility for in-space refitting when behind enemy lines without tumbling over any other grave-stones.

Another great option presented above, but my proposal wasn’t looking for fueling strategies per se. But to overcome the challenge of losing the ability to light covert cyno’s in the first place.

The major crux of the original proposal was the situation where the “original cyno” was no longer available.

Let’s face it, the T3C balance pass was brutal on the HK style of gameplay. Unless you’re willing to spend some serious ‘virtual’ coin on a wholly disposable asset (or for a really big target), it really doesn’t make much sense to tackle in anything all that pricey. Frigs are cost effective, fast, and pretty much the only other ‘realistic’ option nowadays! The days of guaranteed tackler survival are in a bit of a rut at the moment and it’ll take some time for the meta to shake itself back out.

I don’t think its unrealistic to assume that the tackler will very likely not… make… it…! Can always fit the BLOPS (or other fleet ship) at the outset to accommodate, certainly an option, although an unattractive one. Every DPS/Neut/RR counts when the enemy is merely an undock away!

Or, as I’m proposing, permit BLOPS the flexibility (if necessary) to obtain the one in-game item available for field refitting in hostile space… the kind of space BLOPS fleets typically find themselves in.


(Linus Gorp) #18

This thread reads like you and your mates are just too bad to fly covert ops and now want some hand-holding.
The problem isn’t the ship class, it’s you guys.

/thread


(Cade Windstalker) #19

Not really, you just need a storage system that’s reasonably modular and able to securely pack ships of various shapes and sizes. Any system that can store a Rokh, Machariel, and a Barghest without any issues can just as easily store Cruisers, Frigates, BCs, ect. There’s certainly some volume lost to “packing materials” but that’s always been treated as accounted for in the unpackaged volume of the object.

The whole “you can carry one of these or four of those” thing is intentional, because at the end of the day here volume is a balance parameter before it’s a lore thing. That’s why the hoarder is larger than any other industrial, because CCP decided they didn’t want the Bowhead to be the best ammo hauler in the world.


(Mrchafe) #20

To bad the Nestor can’t use a cov ops bridge. It might get some use then. That ship fits every aspect of what you want -bridge use.