BLOPS Fleet Hanger...?

[Cade_Windstalker]

@Garen_Lemmont

What makes the proposal above, in your opinion, very overpowered?

You are proposing that a ship that can enter High Sec and jump to Cynos that don’t appear on the overview should be able to haul volumes of cargo rivaling that of the Blockade Runner. The built for purpose cloaky hauler.

The hangar you are proposing that BLOPS should have can carry anything and they’re unaffected by fittings so this isn’t a case of fitting a Blops with cargo expanders to carry that frigate. Either it can carry the frigate or it can’t.

Also yes, BLOPS do get used to move cargo, though generally people just use them to jump a Blockade Runner rather than cynoing the Blops itself, but it depends on the volume of cargo you’re moving. For small volumes Blops-jumps, no matter which method you use, are one of the safest methods of moving goods in the game.

@ISpace_CowboyI

WHy should it have a fleet hanger, why not just give it a large fuel bay. Ccp wants more ships to blow up. More fuel = more content. Have 1 blops bridge and an extra 1 or 2 blops to hold fuel in the fuel bay. It doesn’t take away from tank or damage but means you don’t have to have a hauler carry it

Because the ships are supposed to be range limited by their fuel capacity. If they wanted them to be able to carry stupid amounts of fuel they would have given them a stupidly large fuel bay.

Fitting and flying a ship in Eve is about decisions and tradeoffs. Not having every potentially convenient thing readily available and at your fingertips.

“Content” isn’t just code for more stuff blowing up, it has to involve restrictions and limitations on what you can do too, and that includes the potential to run yourself out of fuel because you jumped too far. Case and point, Jump Fatigue. There is actually a direct and noticeable increase in both kills and deaths by capital ships that followed shortly after Jump Fatigue was introduced, which can be largely attributed to the increased feeling of safety making people more willing to risk the ships.

[Cade_Windstalker]

@Garen_Lemmont

The suggestion is to permit a BLOPS the ability (via the use of a fleet hanger) to receive a Mobile Depot, that’s it! The desired end state is to refit a BLOPS BS with a covert cyno so that it can call in the fuel truck it needs to do its job (my colorful initial example was to ‘get home’). Again, this ability is not something new but a mechanic that already exists in game. The only caveat (and root attribute of the proposal) is being able to receive a Mobile Depot.

Because, again, there are about a dozen ways out of that situation.

Either bring your depot with you in the first place in your BLOPS, bring another ship along that has what you need (I recommend a Blockade Runner), or pay the price for your poor planning.

Adding a fleet hangar just so a Black Ops BS can take a mobile depot is overly specific and kind of pointless for any other use. At that point you’d almost be better off adding a fitting service but that’s incredibly powerful in and of itself. You’ve also kind of completely failed to justify why Black Ops deserve a special exception to the mechanics that explicitly prevent passing depots in space. Your justification here seems to be “they’re expensive and easy to get stuck” to which my response is “yes, so don’t plan badly”.

I will admit I was conflating SMB with Fleet Hangar for part of this thread, but I’m still not seeing why you feel this is in any way a justified or needed change. Okay, you got yourself stuck. Oh well, plan better next time?

[Garen_Lemmont]

@Linus_Gorp

you and your mates are just too bad to fly covert ops and now want some hand-holding.

Sigh… I value and respect your opinion, thanks for the insightful feedback!

[Garen_Lemmont]

@Mrchafe

To bad the Nestor can’t use a cov ops bridge. It might get some use then. That ship fits every aspect of what you want -bridge use.

Too bad indeed! You are absolutely correct, performing the job of hostile space refitter would really help out this style of gameplay. How this could be incorporated into game without being OP however, now that’s a totally different matter.

More able minds have debated the utility (and drawbacks) of being permitted to fit covert ops cloaks onto this hull before. Simply too complicated an issue to even propose since this could potentially affect a lot more than intended.

[Garen_Lemmont]

@Cade_Windstalker

You are proposing that a ship that can enter High Sec and jump to Cynos that don’t appear on the overview should be able to haul volumes of cargo rivaling that of the Blockade Runner.

I am not. My proposal specifically stated that the BLOPS cargohold should not be changed in any way with the exception of reclassifying the cargo space, in part (or as a whole), as a Fleet Hanger. Based on the numbers provided above, it looks like cargo-fit BLOPS which already exists in-game already directly competes with the BR.

Perhaps that capability should be curbed? Sure, but that’s a whole separate topic apart from the Fleet Hanger proposal.

@Cade_Windstalker

Not having every potentially convenient thing readily available and at your fingertips.

You used this line to address @ISpace_CowboyI’s comment above. However, I can’t help but think that this concept also pertains to the Fleet Hanger proposal. It’s a strong argument against having a BLOPS Fleet Hanger (although it is a subjective point).

Not sure if you intended this, so I apologize in advance if I’m taking your words out of context.

@Cade_Windstalker

Adding a fleet hangar just so a Black Ops BS can take a mobile depot is overly specific and kind of pointless for any other use. At that point you’d almost be better off adding a fitting service but that’s incredibly powerful in and of itself.

Very good point! Some kind of record here on Eve-O!

I think we can all agree that a BLOPS refitting service (i.e. baked into the hull) would be terribly OP, so I wouldn’t even think of proposing this kind of ridiculousness.

Let me pose this. Considering the fact that there is no other viable use for this mechanic change apart from the edge-case use of permitting the hull some flexibility, does this in-and-of itself disqualify the proposal from a game design standpoint?

Put another way and mindful of the fact that there doesn’t appear to be any ‘consequences’ of this proposal to the game or its gameplay. Should a proposal be excluded because its intended impact is too small?

I actually considered this before posting the idea originally as a huge impediment to viability (well, after using some dank google-fu to see how this topic had been addressed before).

It’s almost as if the answer to hull flexibility could be solved merely by permitting the ship class to light its own covert ops cyno’s - i.e. without needing the high-slot taken up with the mod. Outside the scope of the proposal for sure.

[Linus_Gorp]

I see two major problems with your fleet operation.

1. It reads like your guys don’t turn their plates off before jumping, turning them on again after landing on-grid. That’s wasted fuel that you could fix.
2. You fit a bridge to a combat blops and end up with a shitfit abomination.

If you want to bring friends along on the occasion, get a dedicated bridge blops with fuel trucks. It’s really as simple as that. And before you come along and tell me one about how a person in a fuel truck can’t be in a combat ship, have you ever heard of this thing they call “alts”? I heard they’re especially useful for things like this.

You have everything you need at your disposal. Whether you want to utilize the tools available to you or not is entirely your problem.

[Roksana_Kolesnikova]

@Linus_Gorp

get a dedicated bridge blops with fuel trucks

Thats what i told, i think

BLOPS Fleet Hanger...?

We used Blocade Runners for fuel transport. They jump with the fleet and if fuel is wanted they jetison the required amount of it.

[Garen_Lemmont]

@Cade_Windstalker

… kind of completely failed …

As an aside, that little bit literally made me laugh out loud, nice.

@Cade_Windstalker

You’ve also kind of completely failed to justify why Black Ops deserve a special exception to the mechanics that explicitly prevent passing depots in space. Your justification here seems to be “they’re expensive and easy to get stuck” to which my response is “yes, so don’t plan badly”.

I can see where your impression came from as it took a couple posts for this to come up.

My basis for proposing a relaxation to Mobile Depot transfers, specifically for the BLOPS hull, is merely to permit the ship class the ability to perform its “intended function” without requiring a sacrifice in the face of adverse conditions.

When I say intended function, I mean the ability to jump (and bridge others) to remote covert cyno’s followed by either dying or getting back home without requiring a work around or other ship fitting sacrifice.

Undock before the drop with a Bridge and Covert Cyno fitted… yes, can be done by sacrificing two high slots and theoretically only needing one (the bridge). The fitted cyno? Useless in a drop situation fitted to the Bridge. So useless in fact, that it would ONLY be needed in the case of losing the scout. Granted, that’s a higher probability nowadays, but still the only time that module would be needed.

The Fleet Hanger proposal seeks to circumvent this operational limitation by permitting the BLOPS the ability to take on a Mobile Depot (with no other change in mechanics) to permit reconfiguring it’s hi-slot arrangement so that it can continue to perform it’s job (call in a fuel truck).

Tons of ways around this, some highlighted above. Here’s another not presented yet… make fleet members carry depots/cyno’s or have them fit cyno’s. In fact, I have a specially fit SB fit this exact way that I sometimes use in dicey situations simply to mitigate this issue (i.e. have it just in case).

Have we needed to use it? Absolutely!

Should skirting around these limitations (ultimately an inability to perform remote fitting - currently circumvented with a workaround) be necessary to merely permit the ship class to perform its intended function be required?

I don’t think so, hence this proposal.

I can see it now… “You want this in-game so you can obviate the need for fitting compromises”

Ultimately, I want the ability to undock and then redock (if successful and still alive) without needing to use a work-around or fancy footwork in the face of adverse conditions. Let the ship do what it’s intended to do!

[Garen_Lemmont]

@Linus_Gorp

I see two major problems with your fleet operation.

1. It reads like your guys don’t turn their plates off before jumping, turning them on again after landing on-grid. That’s wasted fuel that you could fix.

2. You fit a bridge to a combat blops and end up with a shitfit abomination.

Hah! No, we do not mandate that bridge takers offline their plates prior to jumping into the fray. I would be amazed to hear if anyone nukes their tank prior to jumping into combat.

The wasted fuel bit, sure, that’s an issue but only for getting back home. Ultimately burning up more fuel than required to get back from B to A is an economic concern not a BLOPS mechanics one. I would not be in favor of advocating a removal of the armor plate usage fuel penalty.

I think the penalties currently existing in-game that limit the effectiveness of BLOPS drop range are important and should remain.

#2 is an option, one whose persistence in game is puzzling to me, hence part of the basis for this proposal.

@Linus_Gorp

If you want to bring friends along on the occasion

And who doesn’t… Eve is a GROUP game after all…

@Linus_Gorp

get a dedicated bridge blops with fuel trucks. It’s really as simple as that.

Acknowledged above and already agreed to, that this is a valid option! One which doesn’t address the BLOPS Fleet Hanger proposal in any way. In fact, this proposal is seeking to permit calling the fuel truck in the first place!

@Linus_Gorp

And before you come along and tell me one about how a person in a fuel truck can’t be in a combat ship, have you ever heard of this thing they call “alts”? I heard they’re especially useful for things like this.

When you suggest that the only way to perform an in-game activity requires “having an alt”, don’t you think, even a little, that the activity being mentioned is flawed at it’s core? Alt’s are force multipliers, their use shouldn’t be mandatory to merely perform in-game activities.

Heck, you don’t even need an alt to move a capital! Of course, things are easier if you have one light the cyno on station, but you could always gate it!

@Linus_Gorp

You have everything you need at your disposal.

Not quite, there’s still that little matter of permitting a BLOPS to on-board a Mobile Depot!

@Roksana_Kolesnikova

Thats what i told, i think

Yessir, you did indeed!!

[Linus_Gorp]

@Garen_Lemmont

Hah! No, we do not mandate that bridge takers offline their plates prior to jumping into the fray. I would be amazed to hear if anyone nukes their tank prior to jumping into combat.

They’re unlockable and invulnerable for 10 seconds after landing. Wears off either after 10 seconds, or if they take a action (like locking, moving, doing F1 politics, etc.), so this shouldn’t be a problem. They have plenty of time to activate their plate.

@Garen_Lemmont

And who doesn’t… Eve is a GROUP game after all…

I don’t. I’m either out solo blopsing or run around with a very small group of associates in a pure combat blops fleet. Not going to bring peasants along.

@Garen_Lemmont

When you suggest that the only way to perform an in-game activity requires “having an alt”, don’t you think, even a little, that the activity being mentioned is flawed at it’s core? Alt’s are force multipliers, their use shouldn’t be mandatory to merely perform in-game activities.

It isn’t mandatory. You could always take gates back, or fly a fuel truck there through gates. Or just jump back after each drop for refueling.

The cyno mechanic is designed as a group mechanic. Saying that it’s “flawed at its core” because you can’t do it solo isn’t really a compelling argument. Alts are just the alternative to having another player do it. Someone has to be the janitor, else things are turning awful fast (i.e. you run out of fuel and end up stranded).

[Old_Pervert]

@Garen_Lemmont

Bridge is out of fuel, doh!!

First mistake was not keeping track of your fuel in the first place. Plan ahead and that won’t happen. These are exactly the kinds of mistakes that CCP loves to punish us for, and I for one love getting punished.

@Garen_Lemmont

Wait a sec… how do you get the mobile depot from the inty to the Bridge? Shoot it and pray for a drop? That’s pretty much your best bet if you don’t have another scout handy or can’t get one out quick enough.

Perhaps I’m missing something, but why would the cepter not just jetcan the depot?

That said… I do like the idea of a fleet hanger… but I like it for a different reason.

The blops BB wouldn’t have to go chasing around jetcans of fuel, a faster ship could just travel to it and drop the fuel in. I would stipulate that the fleet hanger could only contain fuel.

[Cade_Windstalker]

@Garen_Lemmont

I am not. My proposal specifically stated that the BLOPS cargohold should not be changed in any way with the exception of reclassifying the cargo space, in part (or as a whole), as a Fleet Hanger. Based on the numbers provided above, it looks like cargo-fit BLOPS which already exists in-game already directly competes with the BR.

Perhaps that capability should be curbed? Sure, but that’s a whole separate topic apart from the Fleet Hanger proposal.

It doesn’t you’re basically saving fuel and pilots to be able to carry roughly 1/4th of what a BR can. Also reclassifying the cargo space as fleet hangar would completely negate the cargo hauling role because fleet hangars aren’t affected by cargo expansion modules or rigs.

@Garen_Lemmont

You used this line to address Space_Cowboy comment above. However, I can’t help but think that this concept also pertains to the Fleet Hanger proposal. It’s a strong argument against having a BLOPS Fleet Hanger (although it is a subjective point).

Not sure if you intended this, so I apologize in advance if I’m taking your words out of context.

Yes and no, it was intended kind of as a blanket for this entire idea of yours. Your original post was more than a little confusing in what it was actually proposing but the general situation you seem to want to solve isn’t a problem with the game it’s a problem for the user to solve.

@Garen_Lemmont

Let me pose this. Considering the fact that there is no other viable use for this mechanic change apart from the edge-case use of permitting the hull some flexibility, does this in-and-of itself disqualify the proposal from a game design standpoint?

No, it doesn’t, but it does bring up the immediate question of why the flexibility is needed or warranted and what you’re actually providing in terms of use-cases here.

Your argument here pretty much seems to be “this can happen, it’s inconvenient, CCP please fix” when that’s exactly the point of requiring fuel for jumps in the first place. Maybe you get that ping and only half your fleet can even make the second jump. Oh well, poor planning on your part there!

@Garen_Lemmont

My basis for proposing a relaxation to Mobile Depot transfers, specifically for the BLOPS hull, is merely to permit the ship class the ability to perform its “intended function” without requiring a sacrifice in the face of adverse conditions.

Ah, here we have the disconnect. That “sacrifice in the face of adverse conditions” is what is known as a tradeoff in game terms. Not just Eve terms but games in general, and tradeoffs are what drive interesting choices, and a good game is a series of interesting and meaningful choices.

You can either make your sacrifice or take the risk that comes with not. Those are your choices. It’s why Eve has fittings in the first place.

Also… this:

@Garen_Lemmont

Should skirting around these limitations (ultimately an inability to perform remote fitting - currently circumvented with a workaround) be necessary to merely permit the ship class to perform its intended function be required?

Carrying a mobile depot is not a work around. It’s a trade off. If you want in-space refitting on the vast majority of ships you carry a depot, spend the space that takes, and bring the modules you need with you as well.

@Old_Pervert

Perhaps I’m missing something, but why would the cepter not just jetcan the depot?

FYI you can’t jetcan a depot. The option doesn’t appear in their right-click menu and even if you’re clever and try to jet can a bit of fuel or a piece of ammo you won’t be able to put the depot into the container. Mobile Depots can only be moved between ship and station cargo holds.

[Merin_Ryskin]

I’m confused here. If it’s so essential for black ops to have a mobile depot then why don’t you just put a mobile depot in the black ops’ cargo hold like any other ship that wants to have access to a mobile depot? This whole thread seems like a solution in need of a problem, and does nothing to address any of the actual problems with black ops.

[Kenneth_Fritz]

In my humble opinion. I must say no, nope, uh uh, no way, and 'Oh yeah, um, no.

[Krysenth]

1: have all the ships dropping with your blops carry extra fuel (they can spare 50-100m3)
2: have some of the other ships fit covert cynos too?

Or… both? I dont do blops fleets, but it’s kinda retarded to only have one cyno in your entire group, especially with it quite likely being the first thing to die. Bombers have a free high slot they can use with scanners OR cynos, same with the stratios.

[Linus_Gorp]

@Krysenth

Bombers have a free high slot they can use with scanners OR cynos, same with the stratios.

Sisters of EVE ships can’t fit covert ops cynos.

[Old_Pervert]

@Linus_Gorp

Sisters of EVE ships can’t fit covert ops cynos.

Total BS.

If you’re a humanitarian organization, why wouldn’t you want to sneak your helping hands in behind enemy lines to help nbsi ships with pod birthing?

Won’t someone please think of the pods?!

[Linus_Gorp]

They just closed it instead of fixing that obvious bug

[Old_Pervert]

Jerks.

Though we shouldn’t be too surprised, CCP probably likes watching pods get stuck inside ships forever. I blame the ships really, it’s a behaviour that is left unchecked far too often, and it simply becomes second nature.

I do my part as best I can liberating pods from ships. Sometimes I even try to liberate pilots from their pods too, but pods are hard to get without bubbles.

[Frostys_Virpio]

Why do you call it a bug? Can you provide at least one source where CCP said it was supposed to be able to fit a covert cyno?