The irony…
Bots are still in the market being as much a menace as before. At least before this change you could fight back.
I don’t know if bots exists, but they were not a menace for me, I had my own way to provide value for the economy and bots could not compete. This allowed be to finance my pvp habit for years (relisting was boring, and intriguingly nothing has been done to improve the GUI!?).
I was producing rigs in a POS in 2015 too 
Well I was not very good at that and T2 rigs were really time consuming.
This change only helped the weak and the lazy
How this helped them? They are the producers, they own the primary market and are only competing with each others… They don’t compete with traders…
Ppls always like taxes they don’t pay. But does it helps them?
- I was not wrong, I stopped trading months ago. I wanted to prove a point and proved it. If you think my strategy was bad. I gave a list of items, that can be sold for a 100% profit in Amarr. Show me how you can sell them for a profit without paying this relist fee.
- This items has been sold for this price or up to 89m for months. Check in amarr station.
- This change just help those who receive the new fees : none. And it hurts everybody in the game either directly or indirectly
I’m not a trader by any standards. Occasionally I have some buy or sell orders on the market, usually in Amarr. Even at more than reasonable prices (like using Jita prices in Amarr), undercutting and overbidding usually happens within minutes. The costs for relisting are prohibitive … If anything, this system seems to punish more than it can hope to solve. It is certainly not a way to fight bots …
I’ve often wondered why the devs never came up with a live auction system that could be run for traders a number of times per day.
We could have both an open ascending price auction (aka English auction), the type most of us know, and especially the open descending price auction (aka Dutch auction) which runs with a clock and is used for bulk goods (in the real world for things like fruit, vegetables, fish, flowers etc). Especially the latter should give some exciting market pvp, live action.
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It helps me because people like you are much less likely to re-list items 1isk cheaper than the ones I list. I simply list my produce in small batches once a day at a realistic price and most stuff sells. I re-list anything that doesn’t sell but as it is small batches the fees don’t hurt too much. I’ve been making more isk this way ever since the patch. I think this change aids smaller producers and more casual play.
For those of us who speak English, a rant is “speaking or shouting at length in a wild, impassioned way” My post was neither embellished, impassioned or wild; simply a statement of fact.
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It is more expensive to place a new order than to relist an existing order. The only time this is feasible is if you want to consume market slots for an item you don’t have much if. You wouldn’t do this for Trit, for example, but you could for HGs if and only if you had a few to sell.
I have like 900 market slots and never relist, I’m not having problems selling and making profits 
Let’s see…
- Goes to Jita/Amarr
- Places sell order
- Thousands of players place same sell order very shortly afterward
- Blames bots for frequent outbids, blames relist fees for being inflexible
lollllllll
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@Archer_en_Tilavine 900 market slots… Yes I see your strategy
- Use multiple accounts to mine your ore
- Refine your ore yourself
- Put everything for sale on a single big hub 1 tick lower than the best price
- Finance your 5-80 accounts by extracting skills
It works because
- The only thing you buy on the market are skill extractor and PLEX. The market is not broken for them
- No working capital requirements : the only thing you need to sell to keep your business running are skills injector.
- When you reach your order cap, instead of relisting you use new trader accounts
- The smart price for you is anything > 0 https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/?typeid=2006
You think the change helped you, but you never bothered relisting so you don’t know.
Skills extractor and PLEX are the cancer of Eve Online.
I don’t mine. I don’t buy/sell raw or processed materials or manufacturing goods, not even PI stuff.
If you read anything of what I wrote, I told you it is stupid to play the penny game - 1 tick lower is guaranteed to incur losses due to relisting. My prices are competitive, not 1 tick lower.
I don’t skill extract/inject (though I should).
I don’t trade PLEX or skill extractors/injectors (though I should).
Those 900 items are unique items. modules, ammo ships, etc. I have hundreds of billions in assets that I trade in, and those assets aren’t service assets like PLEX or injectors/extractors.
Not really. 900 slots is plenty to keep me occupied. I have no plans for creating more characters. Also: I’ve never created two orders for the same item at the same time at the same place.
I make good use of various EVE tools to ensure my pricing is both competitive AND makes a profit relative to both market prices and manufacturing costs. I’m not an idiot.
I’m a math guy and know the fundamentals of economics. I know exactly how relisting works and how to make it work FOR you instead of AGAINST you. Relisting hurts my competitors, not me. I celebrated big time when relisting came out because I knew it was going to make my life easier when trading.
I’m the Co-Head of the United Standings Improvement Agency [USIA], and players come to us all the time asking us how they can lower their broker/relist fees, so I teach them marketing strategies to remain profitable while eliminating the need to relist (we charge for raising standings, but advice is always free). If you need to relist to sell your product, you probably priced your product wrong.
I was even the one who created this infographic to help others better understand these fees.
Of the two of us, I’m making profits without dabbling in ore/minerals/PLEX/injectors/extractors, and you’re the one who is complaining about getting burned. I’m pretty sure when it comes to trading, I’m smarter than you. Just saying. Same goes for you, @Zhalyd_Lyehin.
Tell that to those who actually engage in skill/PLEX trading - not me.
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I question that sentiment. There is no smarts involved in trading anymore. It is just placing an order and hope for it to sell. Some people call that “competitive priced orders”, other people called “unengaging gameplay orders”. I do not see the smarts in placing an order and never change the price because that would be too expensive.
This gameplay is so unengaging, in fact, that I recently sold all my Assault Damage Control IIs in Amarr because I completely forgot about them and didn’t notice the lacking market coverage in Jita, which made them ridiculously expensive and my order in Amarr ridiculously profitable to export. In the old days, I could have adjusted to that market trend and upped my orders to a better price to profit from this market shortage as well. In this day and age it is just not worth it to chase “competitive prices”, and according to your logic I placed my products at the wrong price either way. Talk about smart.
But keep on calling it smart and competitive. Just because you turn a profit, which I do as well, doesn’t mean you are smart. You are just justifying an unengaging, uninteresting and PVP inhibiting gameplay feature. Nothing else.
As for your picture: Care to explain what is smart about that? You need the best feasible standings to have the least fees and taxes. There are no smarts involved, it is a binary choice. Less binary than the crap in TTT as you can keep improving if you have not reached +10 yet but still binary. I have explained at other instances what would involve real smarts, for instance, smarts about nurturing your reputation so that people buy from you instead of the .01 ISK cheaper guy if market anonymity and Buy/Sell from/to top order only were removed. But that would be too smart for some among us.
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You stated it, you are not part of the manufacturing chain… You’re useless to it and probably to the economy as a whole.
I’m the Co-Head of the United Standings Improvement Agency [USIA]
Oh yes, you got hurt by the patch… We all, traders, were your only clients before this patch… Good luck convincing traders to raise their standing…
I’m pretty sure when it comes to trading, I’m smarter than you.
Probably, I am a pvper… Regional trading was just a bearable way, to me, to finance my pvp habit while being useful to the economy. Not a full time second job.
who is complaining about getting burned.
Yes you are right. If CCP can neither understand its player base nor a manufacturing chain, it is not my business. There’s great games out there, I am not sure why I waste my time bitching
Anyway none of the guru bothered telling me the “right price” for these rigs so I injected this new broker skill and relisted 1 tick lower…
Ouch my first relist fee since the patch!! I definitely don’t like it. My gameplay was hurt but not my wallet, I am not that dumb.
Just out of sheer, naive and easily disappointed curiosity: Right now there is still a shortage or ADC IIs in Jita and Amarr. Amarr price is currently 790k, Jita is 960k. Production cost for mine were 350k, normal price is 540-560k.
Since claim to be smarter than me: What is a “competitive price” for this item? 
@Zhalyd_Lyehin, Let me guess, a 5% margin seems extremely competitive. So according to the supply chain. : ISK 1.3m? 
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/?typeid=47257
I wonder where Fuzz gets the Invention cost from. Seems extremely off the mark. Another page gives me Invention cost of 95k per run, and a build material cost of 300k per run. One reason why I really don’t like Fuzz’ site. It’s extremely convoluted and unnecessarily hard to read.
This is ignorant.
You don’t see the “smarts” in making profits without wasting time updating orders regularly and without losing profits to relisting? Are you serious?
The engagement is found on the battlefield, not in the market.
All roads in EVE (are supposed to) lead to combat. Marketing is supposed to allow you procure assets for combat, or to generate revenue with which to procure those assets. EVE was never intended to be an economics simulator - that some people enjoy playing EVE only for the market or only for the mining or some activity that doesn’t actually involve flying around in a combat ship is… good for them, I guess. Sorry that the “engagement factor” for marketing dropped, but given that the market is meant to be a means to an end and not an end to itself, anything that makes it easier to use and require less time and effort on the part of players is a good thing for almost the entirety of the player base. Same thing with anything that levels the playing field when it comes to wealth discrepancies: that sell prices went down and buy prices went up as a result of relist fees was a great thing for the average trader.
Again: engagement is found on the battlefield, not the market. Engagement on the market = waste of time for almost all players except for those who play EVE as an ecosimulator and never intend to undock (for combat) on ANY account, not even their “main”.
False. You can profit with 0 standings at NPC stations. With perfect standings, you only get a 0.5% broker fee reduction (and 0.375% relist fee reduction with L5 Advanced Broker Relations). That’s not going to make or break the profit margins of most traders for most items. On a 1 billion ISK item, that’s a 5 million savings going from 0 standings to perfect 10 standings (corp and faction) - not usually a big deal. Only very high-volume traders who trade buy/sell tens or hundreds of billions a week and/or who relist aggressively will notice the difference. It’s not hard to get modest standings for some of the savings if not the full amount.
If you manage to trade that much, you probably don’t have anything to complain about to begin with.
Did I forget to mention I own 1000+ unique (non-duplicate) ME10/TE20 BPOs and have max reproc skills (and +4% reproc efficiency implant)/science (including invention)/manufacturing/reaction skills? I very much could engage in the chain if I wanted to, and I used to. Right now I just primarily engage in final products, primarily those that cannot be manufactured, or those I already manufactured long ago in my stockpiles. I have no shortage of things to trade.
With 900 trade slots and marketing competency, I don’t need a side business to generate profits.
Since you’re taking a swipe at my business, I should point out that I don’t think USIA should have to exist. USIA exists because the standings system in the game sucks and should be completely and totally changed for the betterment of everyone. The more the standings system is fixed, the less of a need there will be for USIA; ideally, I would like to see it killed completely… on the day standings mechanics don’t suck anymore. I have some ideas I want to submit to the current CSM for reworking standings mechanics, and if they don’t act on it then it will be part of my CSM16 campaign platform.
Hm… this is a good point you’ve made… not everyone knows how to make relist fees work to their advantage. You just gave me an idea I’ll pitch to Mike. And if CSM/CCP doesn’t act on it then it’s another point to add to my platform… at the time of writing, 84 points and counting 
I prefer to use EVE Industry - Blueprint Calculator to compute manufacturing costs. It is more straight forward and easier to use and read. This site doesn’t incorporate the cost of acquiring the T2/T3 BPC you’re using to produce the product, which is highly variable, so you need to factor that in separately, but at least it doesn’t pretend invention costs are constant like Fuzzworks does (same invention cost for every run count? really?).
Not sure why you’d want to sell at Amarr or Jita. You’re usually guaranteed to make the slimmest profits there. I made my own local tradehub a couple of years ago, sold approx 900 different items, and set most of my prices to 2x-10x, in some cases up to 100x Jita price depending on the item. And yes, they sold heavily - it was in a Hisec system (not an island) close to two other tradehubs (different region from those two).
If you look at the orders and history at Amarr, almost all T2ADCs were bought out in the past week, so the ones remaining are old orders using an expensive price and one new order piggy backing on the expensive prices. These are much higher than the moving averages and the medians, which have had a relatively mild trend lately. The sales volume at Amarr is very low so no matter what you pitch, if you are outbid you’re going to have to wait it out (unless that wholesale buyer comes around again), but if you pitch close to the median (575k is the upper median range lately) it should sell eventually, just not quickly no matter what (profitable) price you pitch
By the way, if you examine the graph, the min prices match the price of the buy orders - for some, players are selling T2ADCs for pennies on a near-daily basis… I’d place some buy orders here just to take these off their hands for cheap (whether or not you also place sell orders).
The situation at Jita is different; if you exclude the past few days (weird activity), the volume is so high, and the min price and max prices are so close together, that even with undercutting you are more-or-less guaranteed to sell eventually if you stay within that tight range (which everyone else stays in), you just have to wait.
The last few days show a spike in the median - this could be war related (even though the volume wasn’t noticeably different). Given that someone bought out all the T2ADCs in Amarr and is paying a considerable amount of money at Jita for the ADCs, you could gamble on the war demand and pitch a very high price in both Jita and Amarr. At Jita I’d stick with what everyone else is doing (950k-ish when I last checked), at Amarr a bit lower (775k).
The war is going to change pricing a bit, that’s for sure. Demand goes up, supply goes down… plan accordingly.
Stop stalking and idolizing me. Go back to your wife. Shoo! Be gone with ye!
I mean the general player base. You will never make everyone happy…
Edit; I still like that song though! Seems to fit. 
I will make it mean whatever best suits my political ambitions.
The song that plays when you jump your first stargate:
My wife is a redhead and a registered Blackbelt. You have nothing on me… I fear no one! 
Edit; Well… except her…
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