I actually welcome this change, and I think it will have a positive impact on the game for the majority of players. I say that as someone who trades a lot, and has played the .01 isk game for hours on end. It was terrible gameplay and it should have been fixed years ago.
Good to see CCP making a change for the better. To all the whiners who make a living by .01 isking and can’t deal with this change, I am sorry.
…and another applauds the shrinking sandbox…sad.
If you didn’t like the gameplay, then it was on you to stop…
Well the market has to serve everbody not just station traders. As a ongoing producer i hate Jita since selling products there means i put my product in, and 1 Minute later 3 people have gone under my offer and i have to sit around for 4 minutes doing nothing, then adjust it again and just waste my time there till i sold my stuff. This might be fun or make sense for station traders, for everbody else it is not.
Might be true, that this change is not good for ongoing station traders ( i doubt it) But you shouldnt assess a change on how it effects special group Nr. 17 while ignoring everbody else in the game.
“First they came for the pirates, and I did not protest, for I was not a pirate.
Then they came for the traders, and I did not protest, for I was not a trader…”
See where this is going?
“Then they came for industrial players, and I rejoiced, since it removed competition”
These changes will probably remove a lot of my competition, because I am a casual trader with very big pockets. My trading pattern is actually like a big industrialist.
But I am not rejoicing, just hoping that CCP are calculating right that these changes will make more new players happy, because obviously they will drive many players away.
I dont know. You ever tried using more then one station for actuall trading? Station trading is not going to be dead. Just station trading in Jita might be different. Yet the inability to see why the margin is so slim, might already be the reason why margin is so slim. It is not so hard to turn a good margin trading, but i requires moving your ass out of Jita once in a while.
Also the permanent 0,01 changes are cancer and there is no skill involved. You dont have to think about pricing, just be online and go down 0,01 ISK. It sucks for most people. Despite that. In the real world this kind of low margin trading is done by bots. I prefer a EVE experience that is catered to players not bots.
There are other hubs in the game besides Jita. If you don’t want the hassle of selling in Jita – and it is a hassle for everyone – then Amarr and Dodixie are pretty good alternatives where you still get to sell your stuff relatively fast and at least with as good profits. You think this change is gonna make your life better? You will still be undercut, only now it will cost you a lot more to get your items sold.
The 0.01 ISK play and high modification rate is due to the inherent nature of the game and the items being sold. You are not selling unique Abaddons or Hobgoblin IIs (yes, there are killmarks that make ships unique and which can then be sold as unique items – how exactly is that working out?). You are selling the same stuff everyone else is selling and buyers have no reason to buy from you other than your price. Being undercut by 0.01 ISK within 10 seconds after placing your order does not feel good for anybody. You think only small sellers experience this? Hardcore traders experience this every single day being undercut on a lot of their orders like everyone else. And they still manage to sell their stuff. If this was such a bad game mechanic to begin with, how has it brought about one of the most successful game economies?
And now with limits to price precision and order modification it would be gone.
Hmpf, In the current system, I go to a trade hub with something that dropped in PvE and the market has buy orders at 1,000,000 or less and sales at essentially 5,000,000, and I am not a trader. I place a sell order with a month and 3,500,000 because I got it in the course of pursuing sec status or a skilling spree, so it is accidental income, unlikely to be repeated soon.
The result? Usually sells in minutes. Might be someone using the module on a ship or it might be a trader annoyed with the competition, seeking to extinguish the anomaly in the forest of 4.899,991.99 prices. As a player I neither know nor care. I figure there is always room for this when the buy orders and sell orders have more than a 50% markup, let alone 400%.
Patience I have. How about that?
Having spent a lot of time doing station trading the last few years albeit at irregular frequency, I believe these changes are well-motivated but poorly thought-out, with insufficient data analysis, and even more insufficient insight and understanding. The double whammy of both (A) reducing pricing resolution to 4 significant digits and (B) introducing a massively expensive relisting charge for order changes is going to make our mostly illiquid markets even more illiquid and make trading less profitable.
It will do this by (1) interfering with price discovery (the market mechanism by which both buyers and sellers find an acceptable range of price points through which items can be traded at higher volumes and higher mutual acceptance of prevailing item prices), (2) increasing the spread between “bid” and “ask” prices needed in order for a trader to make a profit, and (3) probably reducing the number of station traders due to the increased difficulty of making round-trip profitable trades. The latter will hurt more casual market participants by making the markets less liquid through lowered presence and/or participation of station traders.
I agree that botters are an undesired aspect of current EVE markets in the five main trade hubs (Jita, Amarr, Dodixie, Hek, and Rens). However, making changes to game trade mechanisms that will significantly hurt legitimate, rule-following station traders is not the answer.
I’m sure that there are players that resent the presence of station traders because they may think they are making ISK that might otherwise go to non-station-trading players. However, such an attitude reflects a lack of understanding of how markets work, both within EVE and in real life. Efficient and “fair” pricing is in general best achieved by increasing the number of market participants, and high-volume traders (like station traders) usually help achieve this by improving price discovery and adding market liquidiity. Sure, a station trader may scalp 5%, 10%, or even much higher levels off the potential profit that the original item seller could have eventually achieved, but this is offset by the reduced waiting time that might otherwise be required to find a buyer. Trying to kill off station trading, whether intentional or not, will only hurt the game.
Of the two biggest changes being made here, the relisting charge I think is by far the worst. It seems to be based on the notion that most in-game items are traded by lots of botters, and that regular traders have few legitimate reasons to update orders. This premise is simply false. A very large percentage of items actually only have a relatively small number of active traders, most of whom I believe are not bots. Some items in Jita are so illiquid as to only have 1-2 buyers, and sometimes even none. The participation rate is even worse outside of Jita, even in the four other main market hubs. As someone who trades a lot of such items, often the main reason I change an order is to prevent it from expiring, and that’s with using 3-month buy/sell orders in most cases.
With a high relisting charge, I will likely have to reduce the number of items I trade in, and I expect a fair number of other traders will likely adopt a similar strategy. The reason for this is two-fold: (1) reduced profitability will make some items too risky to trade, and (2) to try to combat the effects of a relisting charge one useful strategy might be to place more but smaller orders in the same item. For example, switching from one buy-order to five buy-orders would allow one to stake out multiple price levels in the hope that at least some of them will eventually execute without having to change the bid, or only having to do so once or twice. Botters may try to adjust in this way as well in some cases, which means that creating a high relisting charge may not be as effective an anti-botting mechanism as EVE developers may think. Botters could use data-mining techniques to try to optimize order pricing changes and sizes in order to still gain an advantage over human traders.
I don’t know what the best way to combat botters is, but changing game mechanics in ways that will significantly hurt legitimate human traders and undermine market liquidity is not the answer.
Now check the actual price of inputs, taxes and logistics involved in producing that item. You got a freebie, You sold the freebie, You do not care about the actual price or selling below its real value. Existence of wide buy-sell spread does not mean that real value is somewhere in the middle. Maybe there is an overall oversupply of that item due to, I don’t know, PvE and RNG item generation? Now if producer was to use Your logic and mark up all input buy orders and sell at discount for quick turnover he would be isk negative with margins involved. Especially a small scale one doing just part of production chain.
I aleady sell in the other trade Hubs. Honestly your complaints are mostly just guesses. Its the same thing we witness every change. Old players cry about it, because they have to change the way they play and say “You cant do this change, because it hurts new players” while new players mostly welcome those changes.
You predicting how the prices are going change is funny, if you are a trader you should be able to turn a profit with those predictions instead of crying.
"This shows that the significant majority of orders (approximately 94%) never get modified at all. The costs associated with these orders will not be negatively affected by these changes. It is also evident that around 2% of orders are modified more than five times. For these orders, the modification fees will start to eat into the profit margins. A tiny minority of orders (less than 1.3%) are modified more than eight times."
So CCP don’t want station traders?
You have a problem you want to solve and the solution is to remove part a gameplay style you promote and proudly announce to new potential costumers that only exist in EvE Online?
Real markets compete with each other to offer better services and lower fees, many markets for example do not charge order cancellation fees but compete with each other by adjusting the price for maker/taker fees.
I am not programmer but wouldn’t the bots just apply new rules to their bot program and the algorithms, something i wont be able to do for each order i want to modify?
The main thing is that being online 23/7 is not that big an advantage now, since 0.01 ISKing in the new form is rather costly. This is what will hurt bots.
Sorry, what? How is undercutting the market for a fast trade an example of patience?
Also how would CCP know if this change has stopped/slowed the bots? Sure it will change market behavior but how do they know which of us it is? If my behavior change as a station trader, does this show CCP that botting has stopped?
In general putting a stop to the bots is good, but i believe the change they expect to see in their market data will be due to people like me that don’t use bots and that will leave the game or stop station trading. This will be a signal to CCP that they have succeeded.
Yes, because If somebody can make a bot tracking market changes and maintaining big orders then surely implementing a new one that will 24/7 monitor the market and insert small volume orders with higher probability of selling and reinserting new ones at the same price as soon as older ones are fulfilled is sooooo much harder…
It is harder than having a bot that changes the price to “station minimum - 0.01 ISK” every 5 minutes, don’t you agree?
With new fees bots cannot be very reckless.
No, its actually not. The whole misconception about that change hurting the bots is thinking that 0.01 isk undercutting by maintaining orders was their key advantage. Their key advantage is being online 24/7, infinite patience and agility in reacting to changing market. Proposed changes do not take that away. They only bot force programmers to change to a different strategy once old one becomes suboptimal.