good riddance…
You missed. I’m a producer and hate trading. I buy/sell all my inputs/outputs wholesale once a week, usually directly to/from buy/sell orders if the prices are reasonable. And even in my limited exposure to Jita trading I hate new changes and the way they will force me to either forgo liquidity and increase tax/risk exposure, or make 24/7 trading my new side backround activity. I will no longer post buy orders after said changes come to life and most likely stop posting sell orders as well to avoid relist tax. In fact I just filed support tickets to have my margin trading SP extracted back on all my trader accounts.
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Just out of sheer academic curiosity I started a little thought experiment: What if we leave Margin Trading as a skill in the game but change how it works? Instead of allowing to place orders with just 25% of the necessary ISK, you should now be forced to have enough ISK in your wallet to cover the order with the highest value completely and other orders only require the 25% upfront payment. That way you can still place lots of orders with reduced ISK investment but it would be impossible to place scam orders as the necessary ISK to fill them would always be available. If the ISK in the wallet drops below that threshold, the respective order would either be deleted or put in a suspended state and become unavailable on the market until the necessary funds in the wallet are restored to the required levels. Margin Trading scams fixed, legit Margin Trading usage still possible, everyone is happy. Well, except for the CCP guys that have to develop this because they have to put actual work into the game for a change but that’s an acceptable sacrifice.
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You really should wait to see how this shakes out. It’s intended to favour trading styles like yours over those that continually baby-sit and adjust orders, over/undercutting yours.
The tax for adjusting the orders every few days isn’t going to be noticeable, but it will absolutely kill the station traders and bots that update every 5 minutes to steal the order completion from you. Making reasonable bids and letting them ride without changing them should have a much better chance of completing under this rule set.
I always find it amusing that people seem to hate change for changes sake without even giving them a chance to play out. Yes, there is reason for concern here that things don’t go to plan, but these changes are intended to be direct buffs to you and how you use the market. Maybe give them a chance before sharpening the pitchfork?
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hub traders, dont care about those low orders either, we just trade on margins, has nothing to do with the actual price of the module. a stationtrader doenst care if a module is worth 1m or 10m except in the fact that its more expensive to buy the latter ofc, but from a margin point of view it doesnt matter if i make 100k isk or 1m isk profit, as long as i get my 10% im cool
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Production works similarly for anyone buying any materials at all, we are not worried over the specific price so much as, what does it cost to buy X Y Z parts, and how much do I need to sell A B C products made with them to make a profit. Trade and production run hand in hand.
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You think the only way to make a captcha is using the ex in game browser?
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Nope, bots will just switch to undercutting by a small volume and list a new amount immediately when sold 23/7. Your stuff will still not sell / bought when not paying attention all the time and following the same rules.
Multi-buy in hubs … bye bye. There will be gazzilions of automated mini volume short duration orders.
The only way to sell your stuff is to be the cheapest order in the market. For buys the other way.
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I’m pretty neutral about it. People (and bots) will just adapt.
4 sig figures, not much effect really, we’re talking about minimum ~0.01% changes in price, that’s pretty small still.
Losing Margin trading, people will have to spend a bit of time building a bigger kitty to work with if they want to play like before. ofc This is mostly going to make the difficulty curve harder for lower net wealth traders, so less competition. People will be inclined to try and hold more isk, so again less buy orders and less competition. In a lot of cases Buy orders will likely drop as a result since less capital to work with generally and less competition.
Increased order update costs is the main one. What I think it going to happening is the majority of people are a bit more adverse to putting up listings with tight margins, unless it’s high turnover sure to sell stuff, so the spread on a lot of items will grow naturally to compensate for the likelihood of higher taxes from having to do a few order updates. So sell orders will often ask for higher prices to compensate. The same effect on buy orders too really, so another reason for buy prices to trend lower to compensate. People will anticipate potentially changing their orders a few times and allow for it, so this will get baked into the new norm meaning higher sells and lower buys in a lot of cases.
Good Traders will adapt to this and do fine. So will the bots.
I actually think the real losers out of all this are going to be people who aren’t really traders. It’ll be the sort of folks that sells their minerals and loot direct to buy that suffer from this, they will get lower prices when they sell due to less hot isk from margin trading nerf, and generally lower prices to counter new update taxes. And on the other side when they need ships, ammo, kit etc they will now pay more for it as a result of risk averse traders demanding higher prices to offset the new relisting taxes.
So as a Trader, I actually feel this doesn’t really effect me that much tbh, it’ll take some getting used to sure, but it’ll be the non-traders/newbie-traders that get screwed the most out of all this.
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He definitely does, because “I know better so $@$UI@ you all” lets all be nice to each other and sing “kumbaya my lord” together- that’s where this game should go according to him.
Missed again. Please stop telling me You know better whats good for me. At volumes I operate, liquidity is the biggest concern because there are sometimes simply not enough decent buy/sell order volumes at decent prices even in Jita. And all these changes only increase risk/cost of posting big wholesale orders so its only natural that people will do that less often and overall volume of posted orders in relation to stockpiles will diminish. And no, people 0.01 isking will not go away. Human nature does not not change just because rules change. They will adapt ant still undercut You by new small order instead of relisting old order. With regards to allowing the things to play out, I not need to cook liver flavoured ice cream in order to find out that I hate them. I have this crazy skill called foresight. I really would like CCP devs to have more of that too before they loose even more playerbase with this crazy “It’s chaos era! lets poke around and change the rules all the time and see what happens” attitude.
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Taxes are always good if it helps balancing out the sinks/faucets.
But starting whith 50% is a bit meaningless - the only difference are NPC to citadels. As someone else aready mentioned let them begin at 0% and raise per skilllevel per 15% .
And for those who say, no one can trade without MarginTrading skill - i refused to skill this thing my whole eve lifetime - and still get a fair bit of the market! Its like shopping whithout credit - you need to have the money for what you buy!
If im understand correctly this price precision thing dont let me make a order like 1,111,111,111.11 or as another point most of my orders have the same cent-value which have the nice benefit of spotting MY order even whith alts.
Am i wrong or are you pressenting bad examples?
If so i dont really like it, in addition to more work for changing order. First you have to think which digit you have to move for changing. Second this newly implemented digit seperator screw my orders every time, because with typing end deleting digits in between the cursor is regulary on the wrong place. And third there is no easy way to change quickly in high digits (see next paragraph).
These points speak more towards bots.
Whith this now larger tick size its your chance to finally implement the shift+scroll and alt+scroll feature to quickly edit numbers.
Currently there only works scroll (cent digit moves one) up/down) and strg+scroll (10th cent moves up/down). Whith this upcomming change in ticksize it where a huge improvement for example alt+scroll and moving the relevant tick-digit.
So here’s a hypothetical situation, and my question at the end of it.
Let’s say you list a sell order with a [quantity] of 30. The price doesn’t matter for this hypothetical situation.
Now let’s say some competitor has 300 of the same item, and he undercuts you by 1,000 ISK.
You have two options:
wait for however long until all of his 300 items to sell, and they will most likely be sold at up to just a few at a time, so you assume it’s going to take a couple of weeks.
OR you can try and undercut him by 1,000 ISK in order to push your sell order so your pile of 30 items will be sold first.
Now, the intelligent decision from your competitor’s perspective will be to leave his sell order as-is because yours is significantly smaller and will most likely be sold out within a couple of days.
But he’s not that smart, and it turns out he decides to bite the bullet and undercut you by lowering his sell order price by 1,000 under yours.
So the 1 cent game turned into the 1,000 ISK game. Now what do you do? continue to undercut by 1,000 ISK, or give up and wait the 2-3 weeks until your competitor gets all of his stock sold out?
Keep in mind there is always the possibility that other competitors that are just as unintelligent pop up and think it’ll be a good idea to compete with the first idiot in the 1,000 ISK game, and then you might have to wait months before you get your money.
On a different note, I think this will cause a chuck of the traders community to exit the biggest market hubs and take their wares to remote markets, such as the lowsec market hubs of Siseide and Nisuwa. this will increase the variety of available items as well as competition in remote markets, which will be an overall boon to PVP-oriented players who spend most of their time in lowsec or nulsec.
I’ve already noticed that happening a bit a few times, makes me wonder if some botters are already testing their code in anticipation for the upcoming changes.
I still think prices will tend to be higher in general for a lot of stuff to compensate for the added risk, since even botters that use the strategy of lots of small orders are still being effectively taxed and taking a risk from all those potentially useless orders further up (plus they’ll be eating up their order slots), those orders may not be filled for who knows how long depending on which way the market is tacking for that item.
Again the losers from all this will likely be the non-trader customers, if they want to stock up on 10mil of ammo or some ■■■■ they might end up having to purchase 10k blocks 1000 times or something stupid like that.
It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if this is going to be blackout 2.0, and everything goes tits up for these sort of reasons that we are predicting and unanticipated ones. I recon there’s a pretty good chance it gets reverted back to the way things were by April.
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i dont understand why you are doing theese overhauls to the game.
i understand why you think its a great thing, but its not.
its quite clear that you at ccp just want to nerf player income and fun per hour.
By nerfing the power of ships(capital nerf), at the same time you buff the cost of ships (ore nerf)
and then you go ahead and nerf player income generated from market deals aswell…
why this 3 pronged economics attack?
as you say - only 1.3% of market orders are made from bots… so thats not the reason, its only an bad excuse at best! frankley, you are trolling people to talk about bots on the market
(as anyone knowledgeble to write a market bot, can just implement the math into the code, as to suut the new “market” and at what point to lower/raise orders and how many times etc etc )
you obviously think the fun will be amped up when “the risk on the field” is amped with lower ehp, aswell as “isk on the field” is multiplied with the new nerfed isk/hr gains.
well its not gonna be more fun or “endering” to undock expansive ships.
This is a game, your suppose to be able to use andwhelp expensive stuff.
its not suppose to be a IRL-simulator.
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Yo,
I am not going to tell what everybody already told here , there are good comments .
Just like to point out some basic ingame rule :
- Marging skill
" If a deal is to good , that must be a scam"
It is like the baiting system in pvp .
If you see a item with a buy order higher than the sell order ( in a not so far station), you’ll have to use your brain not to fall for that .
It is always a margin scam …
Most of the time, it concerns only rare and expansive item ( the amount of this scam > 100-200M/items and usually 3-4 items to fullfill the BO ). Now every raffles has the same effect of the margin scam ( profit)
This is not the excuse for the deletion of this skill .
We just lost our leverage so that was the main focus of CCP .
- Relist Charge
I really like the marketing around this “features”
As 94% don’t change their order , this would have no impact on the market
If I could take the same argument with probably a fewer % and talking about the Pvp
I don’t remember where I found this % but I could say in the same way
As only 80% of the player do the pvp , we are proud to introduce " something that kill it"
There is no way in Jita , that the continuous undercutting of order will cease ,
whatever if it is profitable or not .
The market at the moment has lost its responsiveness ( time between a transaction largely has increased since 2014 ), the market will be a dump of product waiting to be sold and controlled by only wealthy traders.
The rest will sell directly through buy order
Looks like there is a new incitation to use the player "station"market ,don’t think it will be enough to vastly choose them for the Sell Order ( still too risky) .
- 0.01 isk game
This was not an issue , and the new system don’t change really this mecanisme
Only for the expansive item ( > 10B) , but that would push the players to adopt the raffles ?
The same silly behaviours will occur , instead of 0.01 isk it would be 1% or 0.1% of the cost.
Eventually I don’t like the change, but I am equiped to face it.
I can’t say that would be the case for the other traders.
If you start undercutting, you already lost money relative to players who are not engaged in this activity. What you should do is to pick a minimal acceptable price (including fees and your profit), set that price, and do not move your order after that. Someone can still undercut you, but it is economically infeasible for you to continue this downwards game (remember, the step is not 0.01 ISK anymore), so you do nothing.
I work from home which gives me the luxury of being able to manage trades quite often during the day. I also like to use Margin Trading to leverage my ISK to bid for officer and faction cap mods so I can make big margins on low volume items.
So tell me if Margin Trading is taken away and I must suddenly lock all my liquid ISK for any type of trade, and with only a fairly low chance of having high margin trades succeed (at very low volume) … why I don’t just inject a few afk Ishtar alts and sit them in anoms making about 5b a month each?
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“will just have to wait till your order is out of the way”
Why would any trader let their profitable item orders ever fall out? Wouldn’t they just place another order in front of everyone again? Also big traders place orders for tens of thousands of units on an item that maybe gets traded in the hundreds/day, so I’m supposed to just “wait it out”?
So you dont see a connection between low buying orders and the margin? Explains the 10% margin