Broker Relations

This is amazing change. I update my 17 orders daily, in Amarr, that is fast enough for a few.

If I want to sell something for profit I need to spend my sunday doing the 0.01 Isk dance.

As a casual it anoys me greatly to come back from my mission or trade route and find someone 0.01 isking my orders.

Or when I want to buy a Battleship and 7 people come in with their Resell attempts.

Mind you those people are not bots.

Even more desired change wouls be seing names of order maker. Then I can sell to friends, ignore resellers, investigate market manipulators, etc.

If we had ways to flag bots, we would be able to ignore them.

Also tax should be set so once per day updates are viable and once per week free.

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I think 1 or 2 changes should be under same rules as now, to react on massive price changes. It’s also a honor for all player they has played correct.

You can’t because CCP won’t let You with how market is set up. Even if you choose to pay more the money will still go to the lowest offer. If CCP would consider changing this then we would have a chance at self regulating toxic market behaviour with our wallets. There was one good proposal that could change that from @Danmal above:

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CCP from the viewpoint of an economist, your design changes constitute a nice test of Keynesian depression economics. They believe that price rigidities that prevent smooth adjustments of market prices are a main cause of economic crises. In modern Keynesian economics they labor to show that even small costs of adjusting market prices (google so called menu costs) can lead to large economic swings and crises.
Your proposed changes to the cost pf price changes are monumental in comparison. They will lead to price rigidities (wikipedia: nominal rigidities) and prevent market clearing. That will lead to the exact opposite of what you propose to achive: better economic decisions.
You reinforce this problem with the abolishment of margin trading. This will lead to a large decrease in demand for many goods because liquidity will betrapped in escrow (google: liquidity trap). This in turn will decrease turnover for industrialists and traders depressing their liquidity and ability to pay. Isk will be slower earned depressing prices because new players do not have the deep pockets needed to buy equipment.
Given large stocks of preproduced stuff by the big industrialists who have been around forever, good luck making money that way. With people earning fewer isk it can also be expected to depress the Isk price of PLEX so that the willingness to use real money for that purpose might fall or increase
Concerning scams using margin trading: I play to relax and not to win. I once fell for such a scam (paid 200 million in Jita and have the buy order in Amarr disappear). So what. Hence I was paying 100 million in learning fees when I even-tually sold it in Jita. The saying is „Do not undock what you cannot afford to loose“, the corollary is „Do not buy what you cannot afford to loose“.
I did loose more money being half asleep when adjusting market orders (3 billion once instead of 300 million by overpaying and 3 billion in market fees when I entered a selling price with way too many zeros :wink:)
That is at least one dreadnaught destroyed while being docked in Jita :wink:
So I will stay on and watch the outcome of your proposed changes now also with a professional point of view. Maybe Keanesian economics is really wrong. Time will tell.


It will have an impact.

But every change has an impact, it is the magnitude that is important. If all buy orders on the market were supported by active traders leveraging Margin Trading V then there is going to be a massive impact. But those graphs suggest (but to the pendants out there, don’t prove) only a fraction of them are,

I admit, I’m putting some faith in CCP for looking at what fraction of orders are backed by margin, but I expect it is way, way, way less than most market traders expect. Eve players, and human in general, have a habit of extrapolating their experience to the universe around them, and it gets them into trouble. At least in this virtual world, CCP can actually check reality and use that to inform their decisions.

That said, like always, there will be impacts and those will affect some items and markets much more than others. But in general, the market will be fine and adapt to the new normal. I am more concerned that while niche, it was a useful skill for an aspiring trader - it was for me - to ramp up your capital.

It’s the change I am most luke-warm on and the reasons for it are pretty weak. But it isn’t going to cause the markets to implode or anything.

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  • Tick size reduces the number of trading slots and will result in order queuing at the same price spot. People complaining they do not sell because of .01 isking will see their order behind the trades of big pockets spreadsheet automators. Probably they will sell to the buy orders of the same lot (just imagine plex and skill injectors markets - :cold_face:). This will kill the markets for a fair share of the player base, will reduce the velocity of money and cause a recession in CCP balance sheets too, not only in game, as a feature of the game will be inaccessible to many players. Remember that EVE is EVE mostly for its markets.

  • Taxes are ok… they will just increase the prices of goods in the market. Will have an effect on demand and destruction, but not crazy. You have done your regressions, hopefully.

  • Removal of margin trading is a credit crunch. Those with big pockets will be (comparatively) unaffected, but the medium trader and producer will suffer a lot. The margin trading scam on liquid markets seems non existent and non liquid markets should be advertised as risky. The possibility of margin trading scam should be advertised to players, so that they know of its existence. Keep eve wild, yo! Finally, margin trading is a great role play feature for those fascinated by finance. Keep eve interesting, yo! :grin:

  • If this patch is meant to provide CCP with more money, then I believe it will fail. CCP will have more money by increasing the player base with more and proper marketing. I believe in the awesomeness of this game and if properly marketed I am sure it will find the love of many, many players, many, many years ahead. Do not dumb it down, or it will lose its appeal.

@CCP_Dopamine As one of few remaining 2003 vets I dont often publicly post.

I think after paying 3 monthly subscriptions for 17 years gives me the right to voice my concerns.

Over the last 17 years most of your updates have been great. Unfortunately in the last 12 months I have watched quietly as your changes have slowly turned this game into a first person shooter over an mmo.

Your updates lately have been… questionable.

My question to you is this. If you scroll through the comments of this post I can safely say 90% of your player base does NOT want this change.

So will you listen to your players? Or kill the once greatest MMO in online history? EVE is already famous for the best action and picture in MMO. Will it now be remember as the game that shutdown from getting to greedy?

Kind regards.
A dday vet.


Dear valued veteran, in which way have the last 12 month patches changed EvE in to an first person shooter ?
I guess EvE PvP players like immersive action ?

I find that the last 12 month patches have made EvE more lively, I found the game stagnant for 1 decade.

I hope more changes will be implemented, to get people travelling out of nullsec and wormholes …with the ongoing mining and market change updates, getting away from 0.01 prices updates, getting rid of automated price changes, imposing taxes for deep pocket players and bot transactions, currently making players throw trillions of old assets stock on to the mineral market etc.

The most sad thing is that many null sec systems are empty, without players.
Sometimes one can do 10 or 20 jumps with 0 players in local.

Keep the updates coming CCP, kick some azzez :smiley:

The risk of the relisting fee scaring station traders out of a fair number of submarkets is a very real one I believe. I completed a review of all of my existing buy orders and many of my sell orders to identify item submarkets that have the criteria I’m concerned about. These are items that have a fair number of buyers and sellers relative to the item’s trading volume, and liquidity is highly dependent on being able to cheaply change order prices. Simply holding price in these markets does not work well because new orders are highly likely to come in at higher bids and lower asks. Changing price is the only means to avoid order starvation in most cases, and that will soon mean expensive relisting fees.

In the above submarkets, there is currently about a 5-15% profit margin on round-trip trades, but this is only achievable with sufficiently frequent order updates. Although it is possible that there are botters in some of these submarkets currently, I doubt that it is many for the ones I looked at. (New or changed orders arrive fast enough to reduce liquidity a lot, but are not so conspicuously frequent as to likely be botters.)

I’ve taken appropriate defensive action while order changes are still cheap to try to avoid the upcoming relisting charge impact. I’ve cancelled all buy orders in the above submarkets, and I’ve moved to more aggressively liquidate my existing inventory via sell orders. Better to get out now with smaller but known profits rather than risk all profits being destroyed once the relisting charge change goes into effect.

Some other station traders may think that actions like the ones I am taking will now open the door to easier profits for them, but I seriously doubt that unless the bid-ask spread increases a lot in the submarkets I am exiting. They are certainly welcome to scrape out whatever meager profits they can in the interim. I don’t see the need to take on such risk myself; I have better ways to use my time both in-game and in real life.


Still there just in a new format…also for lower priced items, no change

getting rid of automated price changes


imposing taxes for deep pocket players

Taxes effect everyone


i havent seen a single ccp reaction to these posts yet, are they even reading this?


God, with this level of dumb? I hope not!

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Repairs are free

This is exactly the root of the whole problem, and not 0.01 ISK’ing. People wouldn’t even be doing that if you could choose whom to buy from/sell to, or if the seller was random as an alternative.

That’s stupid. Did you try to eat a brick by your temple ? That would explain a lot. If seller was random, I would sell tritanium at 1T/unit, hoping to be the one that is bought items. In reaction, people would not use the market anymore.

The root issue is not “0.01 isk”. It’s that people are able to spam meaningless changes in order to deny other people the access to the market. As long as you have materials to sell / funds to buy you can do it.

This needs to go, as it encourages non-playing behaviour : if you want to sell something, you need to stay in station and fight that “game”. If you want destruction and interaction, you need to have players playing. If they need to remain in station, they are not playing.

It will go once every “spam” action is costly enough to make you think about it. I would personally have gone to 3 significant figures: at worse you need to remove 1% of the sell price to sell before the other.

Considering margin trading : I think this skill had to go long ago. Just CCP did not know what to do . So they used this occasion to change it, by reducing the effectiveness of market botting AND removing a skill that had to go.

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Bots can handle keeping track of or planning relist fees better than humans for sure.

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How does it change anything ?

Indeed using the ESI to filter your wallet with broker fees you can tell how many relist you did for an order, I guess. So what ?

Not making a point to you just a general point that changes benefit bots actually.

I did not come up with the idea, nor am I endorsing it. I was merely quoting it for the purposes of the example. Read through the last posts and go yell at the actual author of the idea.

Interesting choice to change the entire game market playstyle because bots will hate it. Bots don’t feel anything. People do.

Bots will be programmed to account for this change and insert orders in a new predatory manner that elbows people out…those who don’t have AI enhanced calculators, just regular human brains.

‪The new calculations will require such predictive calculus to remain competitive that the bots will gain an incredible edge‬