Broker Relations

[Ahuraa]

The market in eve is intended to work as a brokerage and not as a store.

A broker facilitates and executes an order for trader. They take a commission and/or a fee for this service.

in the real world brokers do take fee for listing an order which we already do in the game it is called BROKER fee, but DO NOT take fees if you CHANGE your order.
If you cancel an order some keep that minimum fee and some don’t. The minimum fee do change if you markup but don’t if you markdown.

If CCP wanted to make EvE market more similar to the real world they would increase the minimum fee but because CCP wants to solve a “problem” and NOT this:

(“One of the guiding principles for the market in EVE Online is to keep intact how closely it mirrors aspects of real-world economics and financial markets. These principles are held firmly in mind when moving forward with any changes to the in-game market.”),

…the result is something that does not “mirrors aspects of real-world markets” and, imo, make it so that real world principles of trading will not be possible in the game. Thus existing paying costumers that are custom to the previous real-world market principles, will feel that the new eve market is unnatural and has unrealistic trading rules.

Because of this people will be drawn to real world markets and find that more natural, pouring in all their savings in to stocks and eventually lose it all. Which would lead to some considering suicide some even murder suicide, one thing is for sure, CCP is to be blamed for all these real world deaths and murders.

Not cool CCP, not cool at all.

PS: instead of playing the game today i did this instead. Is this what you want CCP, me ranting instead of paying and playing? ANSWER ME!!!

[Mevatla_Vekraspek]

@JayGatsby

less drowned by you infinite ressources and cheesy tactics

Wait a few days before stating that, new cheesy tactics are on their way…

[Ahuraa]

Traders bring the price down, if less traders exist you have to compete with less but with larger whales with deeper pockets. Hopefully i will be one of them when i enter the market couple of weeks from now.

[DrWaldorf]

@Uriel_the_Flame

I don’t use excel either tbh.

… Because I prefer a custom MySQL database updated from ESI with various analytic scripts and views

[Sheldon_d_Albion]

@Gowa_Hyasyoda

All you need to do is set up false sales that were never intended to make you profit but more or less draw others into the kind of economic suffering you speak of that can directly feed into other intentions such as trying to bleed your competitors wallets

False orders won’t work :

• If the velocitiy of the market is high, if small orders and your order near the BO ,
  they will let your order be filled ( in fact not always, some will stil undercut )
• if the velocity of the market is low, sufficient orders : your false order become the new price

A trader is a strange animal :

• at the beginning of the life of an order he thinks positively so margin oriented
• after a while ( depending of his plan) a form a urgency appears , he begins to slash his estimed gain
• after realizing his time windows is closed , optimizing his losses .

Moreover the traders are often too much carried by their fight to breathe and take the time to think,
their dignity relies on being the first to sell

these psychological time depends of the product ( basic cost, daily volums, initial margin), the relevant informations ( the supposed trend), the kind of operation ( short/middle/long term) .
This was the case before the broker changes , and no reason why it would change now.
We depend on immediate profit now more than ever ( no marging skill) to have a sufficent tresorery to face any opportunities, better lose few now to profit more later ( gambler state of mind)

We don’t know what is the right limit of the competitors ( for example when using SO)
do they buy their product through BO , from another station , from a period where the product was way cheaper , from ganking, from pv-ing, from manufacturing .
If it will be BO , what will be the right price ? the competitor know something the others don’t ?

You are right to divide the trade between long, middle and short term .
CCP is screwing the short term by cutting all their profit ( day to day station trader and high frequency trading ).
And the trade behaviours you describe is my new way from at least 2 years : middle to long term plans.

I agree with all you say except the obvious trick of false orders, best scenario it will be filled and no changes, worst scenario you set the new price, shooting yourself in the feet .

I forgot we loose also something else , the ability to “sign” an order, to let your fellow friendly traders how to manipulate the market. Instead of letting people choose the random price of their order , everybody is forced to use their 0.01% to avoid new mistakes ( the automatic rounded order could make you lose the pole position even if the price you put is higher/lower than the higher BO or Lower SO )
No more collaboration between traders , no more fancy orders

[DrWaldorf]

An interesting way it COULD have been done differently to nullify the power of bots, would have been to allow us all to technically behave like bots by letting us set up our own automation rules for our orders. It could have been a skill based thing so it’s not too mental, i.e. limit to the number of orders you can automate and the frequency depending on skills, so you have to be a bit tactical and selective about it. Maybe up to 50 orders automated at max market automation skill, and down to 30 minutes between updates at max automation frequency skill, so that non automators still get a chance to sell stuff. It could allow for more complex settings than simple auto-undercutting/price-raising too, hard setting a price when certain conditions are met, time based/price based/competition volume triggers to enable or disable auto-repricing etc Would be kinda hardcore, and would need to be balanced ofc, but would be a nice bit of late game content for hardcore traders.

Would be a hell of a lot more realistic and similar to how real world markets operate, and could open the door to some interesting new strategies, like trying to lead your competitors automated scripts where you want them, and it could take some of the manual tedium out of it. But yeah nothing like that is possible now with their current skeleton development crew who seem to consist mostly of skin artists these days.

[Sheldon_d_Albion]

@DrWaldorf

letting us set up our own automation rules for our orders. It could have been a skill based thing so it’s not too mental,

This is a good idea indeed but CCP server won’t stand the charge even in 20².
Their botting fight began when they linked their server stress to their activity => ban of the mining botting in 2014 ( not sure )
and extended it to all form of botting.

[Sheldon_d_Albion]

I just finish a quick test of the relist system on products that will suffer the most ( > 2-3M)

I use some simplification just to not have a too heavy formula
hypothesis : in “normal” condition of trading , the price between a change are quite the same
so in my example the price of the first SO is almost the same after the changes ( near 0.01%)

[Album] Test on the relist fee

I still need to have a deeper look on the formula but the conclusion is obvious no more plex trading .
The control player citadell market has pushed the price of items like plex, injector, extractor, MPTC, daily injector ( …any product dealt in large volum by citadelle) to the quite 0 margin .
You can see sometimes even the BO price of citadel market equal the SO price of NPC market.

CCP simply eradicates the day to day trade of these crucial products .

For the few who still think , I will kill bots because of the complexity of implementing the new formula
I simply laugh , same for those who think this will kill the 0.01 isk ( replaced by the 0.01%) .

[Black_Pedro]

@Sheldon_d_Albion

The control player citadell market has pushed the price of items like plex, injector, extractor, daily injector ( …any product dealt in large volum by citadelle) to the quite 0 margin .
You can see sometimes even the BO price of citadel market equal the SO price of NPC market.

That is the intention of these changes.

Ok, if you spent your time flipping high-volume items you have every right to be upset - CCP deleted your game.

But for everyone else, including many of those flapping their arms and running around this thread this is a better situation and makes for a more useful market. If there is 0 margin, they you can just use existing buy and sell orders to do your trading. That means no waiting and no broker fees.

If these changes work as intended, manufacturers and end consumers should be much better served by the market, and not even need to make orders and constantly update them. People just need to get out of their old, ingrained habits.

[Sheldon_d_Albion]

If you think there are “pure” traders you are wrong.
Often traders are also manufacturers , miners, pv-ers etc …
You’ll have the same trade actors as before with harsher conditions.
The manufacturers will be more taxed, so made their life more difficult,
despite the fact "the ore is free because I just mine them ".

[Sheldon_d_Albion]

You just put your finger on it :
I you have to sell anything, you will be compelled to use the BO, the SO is too risky .
In a market where buying is easier than selling, these actors will be always short of isk.
One of the aspect of the day-to-day trader was to balance demand and offer ,
so to smooth the market …
who sell in big quantities : often manufacturers; it they use SO
there is high chance they will be pilling their order without any traders buying them to sell at a later time( where the demand is high), that requires liquidity the manufacturers might not have .
Any manufacturers now may sit on their production waiting the right moment just to see their orders pilling with the other manufacturers orders .
This would lead quickly to a price = product without ore price #IMineIt #It’sFree and why not #WithoutPiPrice

[Rheinhard_Kurtz]

When manufacturers (me) can’t be sure of maybe ever selling anything, or if we do it’s going to be at cost price, there is no incentive to bother to manufacture anything,

Either products will be stuck on the market, eating capital/sell orders, until one or the other runs out
or they’ll be taxed into unprofitability, if you update to be cheapest.

At that point even if you … choose to run missions, what are you going to do with the loot, that you can no longer sell for a decent price?

Even Jita’s looking a bit empty …

[JayGatsby]

Maybe thats what might be happening now. So far, the last thing a trader did was bringing the price down. They just put more of the same stuff on the market for 0,01 ISK less. There is no incentive at all for a trader to have lower prices.

[JayGatsby]

Do you have a bsis for this? For me its way easier to sell stuff now then before since as a manfacturer i dont sit in a station all day long especially not in Jita. So far i very rarely sold stuff in Jita because i didnt have the time to sit around there adjusting my orders every few minutes.

Have you actually tried sell anything recently?

[Sheldon_d_Albion]

You have to take more risks , knowing in advance what would be the need in the next couple of weeks was already a feature of good manufacturers .
Time is to speculative manufacturers , like the future traders with shrinking margin have to gamble more.

@JayGatsby tested on 20 products ( SO and BO )
I just +0.01% for most of them at least 3-4 times for some .
But I do it to get a better sens of the situation, to change some habits and to check some strange behaviours .

@Meridim sorry man , for product with specific behaviours , like for example big volum but bought in certain hours than can be more trickier to sell.

[Meridim]

I did try to sell something… and updating my order took 120M, few seconds later, i m being undercutt… second update of my order took next 120M = so 2 updates i lost 250M. My complete margin is 1000M ( buy, make and then sell). So my 15 bil investment is just sitting there in jita… i cant get that money out of the market. I dont see a way of selling stuff in jita now … ( i produce t2 rigs…)

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

@DrWaldorf

No real pain to me as predicted, looks more like it’s everyone other than serious traders like myself are the ones getting shafted also as predicted.

So less market PVP. Great. And higher hurdles for entry. Greater.

[JayGatsby]

I would give advice on that but i just realised that iam completly fine if you guys burn your money. Just two things. Your 15 bil investment has a margin of 6,7% percent which is very low, even without the changes. Also it doesnt sound like you risk management.

If you like i offfer you an investment. Maxium of 1 Billion i guarantee a payback of 1,1 within a week.

[Rheinhard_Kurtz]

nope - all my manufacturing is offline at the moment.
If you have been selling outside of Jita, and then come to Jita, you may be selling more than before - this might be because Jita volume > anywhere else x1000 … even now.
I can see there are definitely very much fewer orders for some things.

[JayGatsby]

No, i still dont have a reason to sell there except once in a while when somethin i produce seels for a good price there.

But you see my point that you thinking you might be wrong considerung you neither testet the new change nor seem to bother to adjust strategies?

On the other hand, maybe iam doing so fine because you guys rage quit.