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1865

@MyLoudVoice
"So the era of putting 100 million pieces of Trit on the market is over. "

Hey :slight_smile: Hope you are well.
Whats the prob ? I sell a billion units on public markets per month.
If you like put some screenshots up, then people may give advice.

In which cycles do you trade ? Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Yearly ?

Its a great time for miners, the recent market changes can give them a better price
as people put their full escrow in and dont wanna pay relist fees. So putting up a sensible price is more likely since the change.

1866

I havenā€™t actually looked at ores/minerals/etc, is that what youā€™re seeing? With ships kind of seems like people are simply not posting large buy orders, but different dynamics there of course.

1867

You logic has a fallacy.

First, you are assuming that a company or companies acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable terms, products and/or prices do not evaluate risk before entering a market.

Second, you contradict yourself when you say, ā€œcompetition leads to kill of competitorsā€, thus leading to higher prices. If ā€œkilling of competitionā€ do lead to higher prices (no competion), you are basically agreeing that less competition is the cause for higher prices. How can then more competition also lead to higher prices? It does not.
It is only when no competition exist the company that has a monopoly can chose a more favorable margin to sell the item or service for.

Your logic only works in this example, which i am safe to say, has never happened in the history of trading:

A single company that sells, lets say toilet paper, chose to have the lowest price possible and when a new toilet paper manufacturer enters that market the prices decreases. That leads to one of the companies go bankrupt, the prices go up again to the lowest possible margin.

In this scenario and by your logic competition leads to higher prices after it is lowered. Because without any competition the price do not change, it is only when when the competition enters that market the changes occurs.

3 Likes
1868

Regarding my previous predictions, for margins to shrink, it is still to early to see this.

On the other hand i do see on items that had lower trading volume before the change, prices are going up. This was predicted for ALL items but for now i can clearly see that this is already starting to happen for specif item categories. The cause for this is the inability to update orders and stay on top, thus sell orders have to be higher compared to before the change. Which is good for me and sellers.

Also as predicted before people are exiting markets. The cause for this is either that they have abandoned ā€œno riskā€/ā€œchanceā€ buy orders, or due to not being a able to keep track of them. This opens up opportunities for trades but is risky if the margins are to shrink long term.

For now, ride the high prices and sell.

EDIT: Have in mind when observing the chart that the prices started to increase after the announcement and not just from March 10th.

1 Like
1869

Iā€™m a very small high-sec trader in an economically rather small region (=waaaay to the right in the economic reports).

So that means stuff sometimes has to sit on the market for days. Even when the price is right.
And during that time there will be sell-orders that undercut you.
As long as that are very small orders, I donā€™t care. but if they are big then my price is everything but right. That didnā€™t used to be a big problem. Just adapt the price to follow the market (as long as there is profit).

That would cost me now over 1 million ISK. Itā€™s like throwing away 150.000 pieces of Trit each time just to adapt an order. Itā€™s ludicrous. I canā€™t afford doing that multiple times while already paying hefty prices for the ore, paying the refining tax, having to compete against the better refining rate that low-sec/null-sec gets, ā€¦ Itā€™s not like I make billions doing this. At a certain point itā€™s just not worth it.

PS. I can already predict one piece of advice : move to a better region. But I donā€™t want to do that.

1 Like
1870

Him, and SC are the two main accounts to avoid right now. When I see their names, I just keep going. Donā€™t even read them.

3 Likes
1871

Ships - Oh yeah, high volume fast turn around ships mostly have tight margins. If its ships based on minerals then they follow the price development of minerals with a certain delay. Its unclear how long the mineral bullish market will go on. Perhaps you can find trade deals with a corp which regularly blow up the ships you trade ? Rich PvP players dont care so much about exact pricing, they just want to fastly hop in to ships and get blown up. Good luck with your dealings :wink:

1 Like
1872

If you like post your price per trit unit and the security of the system, as long Trit is bullish I probably can take all u got on a decent price, as favour for you. Please dont send anything to this name, its an idle alt. Post stuff here and I`ll get in touch with you if the price is ok for the security location.
:upside_down_face: BTW All mineral types + Isotopes are welcome.

1873

So after a few days now it is clear this new mechanism has borked the trader gameplay for most traders, I know some specific types have been able to adapt, maybe even profile.

However for module traders, and industrialists like myself all I can say from my experience is that my income has dropped by 90%, and about the same for my gameplay opportunities.

Please CCP change it back, itā€™s not too late, just because it was on the test server, which is probably not likely to be frequented by traders, I mean what can you trade with no market, didnā€™t mean we traders were going to be happy with the change to the mechanics.

I have a life that doesnā€™t allow test server try outs like I used to, so was always going to miss these changes, but now weā€™re all experiencing it, it is clear it was a mistake, so do the right thing and change it back.

We traders might not attack a statue on mass, but we might sell it, you have been warned.

3 Likes
1874

Hello dear pilot.
Im pretending to be nobody and Im in a good mood right now :expressionless:

In an effort for CCP and thread followers to understand what the described negative impacts for you are - Can you explain in detail how the situation was before the patch and what the difference is to now ?
Perhaps screenshots also help to illustrate ?

Viva viva la revolution, I like your phrase with the sale of the statue.
Live long and prosper, may the force be always with you
$

1875

There are multiple problems.

  1. The fee changes making it unprofitable to change many orders, which now just sit there tying up cash and order slots, remember this is not like the real world, we only have 305 max orders, so if you canā€™t change an order price to make it sell quickly, you make no sales, and canā€™t put other sales up.

  2. The idiotic rounding mechanism dramatically affects the price adjustment process even if it is still profitable, I have gameplay time limits due to real life, but still enjoy what time I have, before the change I could go through and adjust 305 orders quickly, see where my order is in the list and quickly adjust the price if I wanted, and immediately move on without waiting to see it updated. However now I have to look really hard, do some mental math to try and adjust for the rounding, enter a price, let it update and see if I got it right, often itā€™s not and it may have even gone further down the list, and then have to wait 4 minutes to try and get it right again. Itā€™s such a pain it isnā€™t quick or fun.

3 Likes
1876

Info on what some other traders do:

1.) They issue 24 hour runtime orders since the recent patch. This means that slots are only ocupied for 24 hours, but of course one has to pay the broker fee per order. Those orders can help on selling or buying fast, being often on top of the order list.

2.) 24 Hour Offer Traders do 1.), so they enter the order price only once as defined in 1.)
Such orders expire after 24 hours and get auto removed from your list.

Dont kill the messenger :kissing:
Just trying to helpā€¦

1878

CCP objective is very clear : get back ISK as much as possible from New Eden and make it harder and harder for players to gain ISK easilly

So CCP will be get more real money from players, unable to plex account based on farming & trading.

They probably have no other choice since Pearl Abyss bought CCP, probably they have to pay off buyerā€™s debt based on new or secured cash flows (LBO situation)

1879

What I can say from my point of view is that orders have to be far more precise guestimated, the balance price between seller and buyers is more narrow and ā€œfairā€ for the seller and the buyer - Which of course results in more narrow margins. Looking at offers it is, at least for me, easier to tackle the possible current and possible opponent future planned long term trade offers on the product at hand, per region.

This is down to the fact that the opponent traders and me, both sides know, that modifying published large place orders cost hard cash now. It has become far more chess like, where I like to start with the first move or to intervene with some order strikes. However, Im a long term trader.

I enjoy trading much more since the patch, as most of the prepatch nonsense price placed orders may be running dead with no fulfillment on the runtime expiry and such way off priced orders are getting less - If there is agressive competition on that product in that region.

I only trade very large quantities, my trading time frames are monthly, yearly and the maximum trade window is 10 years in my operations.

It has also more made my trading to be a larger bank, providing instant cash to sellers, making them faster fluid by buying half a product market in one go. My clients on the public trade market make much more isk now, as they receive far better pricing compared to competition offers.
So me being active in the market brings more isk for producers, namely industrialists and miners.
The escrow change has also started to bring traders to list very old quantities of stock on to the market, if they are still alive.

I dont trade items with cutthroat competition, I find it a waste of time.
Cutthroat items are, per my definition and opinion,stolen from pvp,from cc fraud, plex or sp conversion, account hacking or from industry overproduction. For cutthroat items the patch is challenging.

That is my experience with trading since the patch.
Fly safe :innocent:

3 Likes
1880

This can also backfire by frustrating players and disrupting the market enough that people quit. CCP isnā€™t great at the economics and has blundered before. More than once.

2 Likes
1881

Ricar Audeles

3h

This can also backfire by frustrating players and disrupting the market enough that people quit. CCP isnā€™t great at the economics and has blundered before. More than once.

What Dart_Zeta said is very possible, but if so, what CCP should be doing is more outreach (advertising, etc) to bring in more new players, not just trying to wring more money from the current group of players.

1 Like
1882

Introducing the Great Intelligent Pricing Challenge.

You think you can intelligently price your products?

Prove it:

There are 10 ravens on sale, in the imaginary market: 101 to 110 mil

101mil
102mil
Etc. ā€¦ 1 every 1 mil to
110 mil

5 more ravens will be placed on sale, between now and in 24 hours time.
You have no idea what these prices will be.

You have 1 raven to sell

Whatā€™s your intelligent price?
I mean: if the present market favours intelligent pricing, over mindless 0.01 isking, what price should you intelligently put your raven on for?

OK Iā€™ll make this easyā€¦ Iā€™ll actually tell you whatā€™s happening tomorrow:

One of the following 3 scenarios will randomly happen tomorrow.

  1. 3 ravens are bought
  2. 8 ravens are bought
  3. Itā€™s ā€œCrazy Raven Madness Weekā€, all ravens are bought everywhere, up to a secret price Iā€™m not going to tell you!

What price do you choose?!?

3 Likes
1883

Iā€™m a pretty active trader. Hereā€™s how my experience since the change has been:

ORDER SIZE AND RELISTING FEES
As expected, large-volume orders are punished harshly by the new relisting fees. There are two ways to adapt to this: smaller order volumes, or vastly outpricing the competition in exchange for razor-thin margins.

I chose the smaller order route. I cut my default order size dramatically (between 50% and 80%), and also am more likely to tailor it to the item in question. I lose out on some sales (as when a big buyer/seller completes my order, then buys/sells the rest of their volume to someone else), but thatā€™s okay. Iā€™m paying more than I used to in broker fees, but managing to stay profitable.

All in all, the new relisting fees bother me less than I thought they would.

FOUR SIGNIFICANT FIGURES
From an order management perspective, I like this change. Iā€™m typing a lot fewer decimal places than I used to. Not a big thing, but nice.

From a price perspective, in the long term it will greatly reduce the spread between buy/sell. This is happening fastest in high-demand items at the bottom end of their significant-figure range. For instance, the spread on on warp disruption field generators has gotten pretty tight pretty fast. Before the change, sell orders ran around 1,600,000 ISK, while buy orders were nearer 1,300,000. Thatā€™s only a 300,000 difference, and now that the minimum order change is 1,000 ISK, that difference is closing fast. Buy orders are up above 1,500,000 ISK and climbing. I expect margins in items like that to all but disappear.

At the other end of the spectrum, a 9,000,000 ISK item also has a minimum order change of 1,000 ISK. The 1,000 ISK minimum increase wonā€™t even be noticed ā€“ what hits those items harder is the relist fees.

COMPETITION
There is still plenty of hardball competition out there, particularly in some items. But Iā€™m running into FAR fewer cases where Iā€™m outbid every five minutes, repeatedly, for hours. Not sure if thatā€™s evidence of bots being pushed out, or just an effect of the relisting fees. Either way, itā€™s an improvement. And a necessary one, to balance out the uncertainty and overall higher cost of the relisting fees.

SUMMARY
Overall, I had to significantly adjust the way I play. And in the long term, traders may find it hard to stay profitable as the buy/sell spreads shrink. But in the short term, Iā€™m managing to stay profitable, even with higher fees and narrower margins.

1 Like
1884

Hmā€¦Isnā€™t that one of the Eve-rules ā€œBe aware of strange men that want to do you favorsā€. I think it comes just below ā€œBe aware of friends that want to do you favorsā€ :smile:

But since a trader must sell stuff,I can sell you part of the mineral stock I donā€™t have on the market (and also some isotopes). But Iā€™m not posting accurate info on the forums. It would also not be very interesting for everyone else. Just send an ingame mail to MyLoudVoice (which is normally only a forum alt) from whatever alt you like. Iā€™ll do some calculations and reply to you with an offer.

1885

Theyā€™re not gonna roll it back fully. Your best hope is to tell them which specific aspects of the update you think they should completely (or compromise and say 25%? 50%? 75?) roll back. Maybe theyā€™ll listen to some specific requests for specific areas of unnerfing the market. But theyā€™re not gonna wholesale undo it.