Broker Relations

Nah I do not mean minerals anyway, anyone can get those, they are laying around space, this is why I specified items made not with minerals. The ore changes are a separate thing really, but they will balance out in some way eventually, I saved a bunch of those to resell later anyway. People only making things with minerals have little to no concept of what it is making other things anyway, many just view minerals as “free” since they mine them, often doing so afk, blech, so they will post things below cost just because its profit either way, much like the people selling off loot at any price. Even if they buy ore its still 1 thing they are buying, not 12, so easier to mitigate losses, and people often sell ore for cheap, see above about it being “free”. I hope this changes after the ore patch, I really dislike afk mining, and I say this as someone who does mining both solo and in fleets, in all securities of space. I would like it to be like before where people had to trade regional minerals, this gives clear ways to trade items across space for profit.

For now prices are erratic, but I suspect they will increase in the future. I bought up a lot of things for cheap people were panic selling before patch, so that should be nice profit later on. Either way, I do not like a change that makes people feel like leaving, its hard to quibble over the details of what a change does that might be good, if one effect is “less players”. For my part I am holding off on building anything until I see where the market is going, esp since sales are taking longer to fill, its harder to calculate build cost vs sell cost.

Well, people why can’t you just accept the simple fact, that the game is not anymore about trading and industry or playing game versus eve and plexing your accounts that way or accumulating goods. It is all about destroying ships and buying new from CCP for real money. World of Ships in Space with broken chats and red dots. You trying to devise pointless plans how to play the game with constantly changing rules pointed to microtransactions. Don’t you see you are just dragging your departure living a dream of the game it will never be. You do not own the game and have no influence on it whatsoever. Nobody from CCP read it or care. The game is not anymore as it used to be a few years back and it is going with big steps from sandbox straight to pvp space shooter.

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I hear you. I don’t like what you are saying but you’re being honest with yourself and in your post.

We just love this game and want to see it stop turning into the guy from American Psycho. It’s like watching a loved one get addicted to pain pills, and you know there is no turning it around. This game has been in our lives for years and years. We just want it to stay, and yes, it is staying…but it is not the game we fell in love with.

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CCP wrote:

"Change: Order prices can only be specified with a maximum precision of 4 significant figures.

Currently in EVE, all order prices can be specified to a 0.01 ISK precision, regardless of the magnitude. This will be changing and will use discrete ticks to a precision of four significant figures."

I honestly do not understand what this word-salad means and I speak English as a first language!!! The example following this paragraph were terrible btw.

However, I could work around that if when I entered my market order change the drop down menu would indicate the new price accurately. Instead, after I have committed to changing the price, the window changes into a different price…corresponding to a ‘new discrete tick of four significant figures’…or whatever you are doing!?! I am very disappointed that I can no longer rely on the onscreen trading information to be accurate for me. It is making trading impossible for me. Please fix the bug, yes it IS a bug, so players can at least see what price they are setting when they modify prices.

Oh, and that part in the Broker Relations post https://www.eveonline.com/article/q67fqo/broker-relations stating ‘there is a desire to follow some real-world examples in how markets can operate, so this change is heavily influenced by the way that regular stock/commodity markets handle pricing.’ In real-world trading the price you agree to does not magically change once you have committed to it, that would result in real-world litigation real fast. I don’t know if that was a misunderstanding of real-world markets on your part or a cynical way of being deaf to anticipated criticism. [I know you claim this is to stop margin trading scams, but most changes have nothing to do with that!]

I have played EVE longer than any other game I have ever played: I started in 2012. I have never posted in a chat before. I am so disheartened. Still, I could work around this with a bit of research re: skill changes and I accept higher taxes and fees, etc., but the ‘last-second-price-change-bug’ is terrible.

Do I think you will remedy this or that you even care? No.

If I cannot make sense of this bizarre move, the poorly communicated new rules with ‘4 significant figures ticks’ and prices that change on an apparent whim, then I anticipate I will be unsubscribing from a game that I have really enjoyed for some many years.

In fact, I am so annoyed I might go through my Steam library and find something else to play, and put my money into, for the next 8 years. EVE, you were a great game! <opens beer, stares into sunset and remembers the good times>

Very sincerely,
E.P.

April 15
P.S. Edit, oh yes, and the value of my inventory has collapsed due to the market drop. Plus the taxes and fees…etc. I have unsubscribed and will burn out my remaining PLEX. It was a really great game. Cheers, EP

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HappygoluckyHealthyBongo-small

This 800mm cannons is exactly the sort of thing I’d previously have set up a buy order for 250 or however many. Now, placing that size of buy order is massively risky due to the relist fee - the elimination of margin trading is just icing on the cake, reducing the overall amount of money available for buy orders.

I’ve basically gone completely feral, I now just post very small buy orders, trying to bait people into modifying their order to get ahead of me, and bankrupting themselves with relist fees in the process.

Before the change, I didn’t appreciate how fundamentally the relist fee would change things in Jita, but managing your relist exposure is now virtually the entire game.

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Pretty much. The economy is basically the only unique thing left about EVE, and they’ve been doing a fine job ruining even that. WTB actual devs, not the current caretakers.

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Im glad to share my data and i will couple of weeks from now. The change is still shaping the new market and it will take a while before it is fully formed.

If you read my previous comments you can read were i describe how the change has made keeping track of individual item and their margins much harder for hundreds of orders, as a “day trader”.

Also as a station trader i need volatility in the market (up AND down, down AND up), sins the announcement the change im observing prices going in one direction, as predicted.

No real world market taxes traders for modifying orders so we are not able to see based on real world experiences how this change will shape EVE market .

On the other hand because EvE trading is similar to real world trading we are able to see how such a tax could shape our world if traders would be “taxes” for creating stop order to protect their losses and/or profits. Stop orders allows a trader to put a buy order that is above current price or put a stop at a sell order below the current price.
In eve because this function do not exist, the only way to simulate it, multiple orders are made as “ceiling” and “floor” orders steeping up or down in price. If needed modified based on the predicted price movement to protect ones profit or lower ones losses (by buying and selling to bring the average price down if the price goes against you).

PS: i am aware that EvE is not a trading app but CCP did say: “One of the guiding principles for the market in EVE Online is to keep intact how closely it mirrors aspects of real-world economics and financial markets. These principles are held firmly in mind when moving forward with any changes to the in-game market.”

Thus the comparison and the critique

If the solution to the problem of bots operating in trading hubs is to abolish station trading then yes, CCP solved the problem. Hopefully the changes will be beneficial for other types of gameplay and the only ones hurt by this change are people like me and the bots.

Abolish = Removing the ability of certain types of traders to operate in the same magnitude as before the change, thus lowering their profits to the extent that one does not feel that the game is fun anymore and unsubscribe.

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:red_circle:

CCP has not given any sensible person what they wished for. All they did was going for a bruteforce fake-solution that makes the game a whole lot less enjoyable and fun for anyone playing it. Taking away interaction from the market is a great way to disenfranchise people. I have not looked at my orders since the start of this dumb thing, I have not sold a thing since and I just wait for the orders to expire now. This is the most amazing gameplay I have experienced in years when it comes to the market.

More stupid things like Blackout, relisting fee increases and other things that take away the fun and turn everything to crap, all under the banner of “We fight bots”.

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i have not been looking at my orders anymore, either. i don’t even care about them. i have been letting my industry jobs sit finished, drugs are finished… but i just don’t want to look at it.

i am still sort of in awe of how bad the last spate of changes has been this year, but looking at the last three-year trend, i should not be surprised.

it was with a heavy heart that i cancelled my account this morning. i included a thank you note to ccp for making my all-time videogame. i’ll continue to check the forums, because this is a trainwreck i just can’t look away from. it has been such an amazing experience. it changed my perspective on the world

i appreciate those of you who brought kindness and thoughtful discussions to the table. people like scoots choo. lol i am just kidding. something very bad happened to that person as a child and they are expressing it here. SC and and that other person andersen greten or whatever, god bless both of them. somebody touched them as babies - or maybe didn’t touch them enough - their parents just abused them or something, i don’t know. something made them that way. the only appropriate response to their acidity is “im sorry that happened to you.”

but man, what an amazing game eve online has been. it’s the high water mark in videogame universes. who could possibly steer this ship without driving it into the rocky banks? i know i couldn’t do it. it’s just not fun anymore, what more can i say.

i love you guys

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@Gowa_Hyasyoda
I like your answer , you are summing up all I have in mind relating to the effects .
I was just on the market observing a decrease on price of all the products I follow closely.
My thinking was, should I go with a complete liquid wallet or a more opportunistic wallet
I just come up with my next plan :

  • converting all my stock into cash ( I have a bad feeling with the next ore redistribution)
  • buying plex because the price is beginning to sink ( almost 3,1 M/unit )
  • conserving at least half on my asset in isks so that I can jump on any opportunities .

That is my plan during this “chaos” period.

I already also changed my subscription from 6 to 1 month.

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I wanted to give my feedback for the devs as constructively as possible so decided to wait and see what it would be like in game before doing so. That being said, it has affected me a lot, much of what I do is industry and trade, so I am looking through a slightly salty lens :stuck_out_tongue:

The change to 4 significant figures? Cool, that I can get behind. People being annoying with 0.01 isk changes on billion isk orders is not something the game needs. This was a fine change and good idea.

Removing margin trading? Fine. It had its uses but I will agree too many scams. Removing it was probably the best option. Even beyond the scams, it does make sense that if you put an order up it should be honored like any contract meaning that ISK should all go to escrow just in case. Good change.

But the brokers fee changes on the other hand… what a nightmare. This hurts traders, industrialists, and hell, everyone. The margins on industry and on most trading activity are tiny enough that if you relist your order a few times, even with maxed out broker’s relations, your profits turn into losses FAST.

And why I believe this is a fundamentally bad change for the game beyond my own personal salt is this:

It DISCOURAGES you from going on and interacting with the game.

Changes should be designed to INCREASE the number of people wanting to log on and play. With these new changes, there’s no point checking my orders when I have some spare time. If the market has adjusted, I can’t do anything about it. I have to wait, or I lose ISK trying to keep up. I either wait until the market swings back, or I wait until I am certain the market will not swing back in a timely fashion. Either way, I’m not encouraged to stay on. And I’m certainly not going to produce anything new and undercut myself making matters worse.

The market in the past week has ground to a slow boring slog. This change hurts one of the most interesting aspects of the game: The player driven market. The ones with the most capital win even harder than before because they CAN wait for their 100’s of billions in orders to sell slowly over time and still have ISK to play with and find good deals. (by the way, these are the same people that have the “Majority of orders that have 0 modifications”. Thought you wanted to spread the wealth and lower the gap?)

Anyways, point being: this change discourages people from trading on the market which hurts engagement levels. That is not healthy for any game.

Possible solutions:

  • Just scrap this change (unlikely to happen but there’s nothing about this change that is good for the game overall)
  • Fix Advanced Broker Relations to matter more. Make it 10% per level with at level 5 = 0% with a min 100isk like before.
  • If you’re concerned about bots/frequency, change Advanced Broker’s Relations to affect TIME not ISK. ie: change to “You can change a market order once every hour, each level of ABR reduced that by 10 minutes up to a minimum time between changes of 10 minutes.”

I do hope something is done about this. I’m not going to be a doomsayer and whine about quitting because of this. People will adjust and new ■■■■ scams will emerge. I’m already seeing people manipulate the market by flooding it with tiny orders. The game will live on. It’s just a very disappointing change and I will likely be a lot less active as I have no reason to idle online.

Encourage me to play more, not less!

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Shouldn’t you have at least waited until the covid vaccine is available to win eve? come on, this is PRIME eve playing time, peoples. ;_;

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Yes, but the people who aren’t buying the product that’s too expensive aren’t listing buy orders that are lower than that price for the store to work its way down to… I mean, that would be really cool, and I’m sure there’s some sort of price-bidding app dealie to try and save money and get deals on this or that out there, but… just saying it like it is.

As for the TP example, that’s really weird one… at least in the US and AU right now, TP is in massive demand with covid + people stocking up for extended home confinement and… the price on TP ain’t going down ANYtime soon with this much demand for it.

Fully agree with you, thanks

You’re right but it’s easier and quicker to nerf the market than adding new values and players …

not me!

BS!

:man_facepalming:

nope. I’ve sold everything I’ve ever wanted to sell and I haven’t missed anything I wanted.

Then dock off and do not spend all your time in front of a calculation/orders list.
if there is no one outside, but the stations are full of rip-offs, it does absolutely nothing for the game.